Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Passionario » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:04 am

Klaudandus wrote:Some of the contradictions can be dismissed seeing how you got old testament and new testament texts contradicting each other. But other contradictions come from texts from supposedly the same time period, or even the same text!


- Retribution Paladins are overpowered.
- Retribution Paladins are underpowered.
- Retribution Paladins are fine, L2Play.

All of these come from the same forum in the same time period! Clearly, Ret pallies are as mysterious as Elvis and God. :D

One possible way out of this maze was offered by Alfred Korzybski (and later expanded by creators of E-Prime language). If we replace "X is Y" statements with something along the lines of "under conditions M and N, X appears to be Y", things become much more clear.

For example, statements 'Bob is an angry and grouchy person' and "Bob is a happy and friendly guy" appear to be pretty much irreconcilable (unless we assume that one of them is a lie, or that Bob is manic-depressive). However, once we add extra qualifiers 'Bob appears to be an angry and grouchy person when he's in his cubicle at the office' and 'Bob appears to be a happy and friendly guy when relaxing on the beach with his girlfriend', the contradiction vanishes.

Sagara wrote:Now, is it me, or is everyone at least agreeing on the "we don't know, and whatever we believe is based on either guesswork, Occam's Razor or wishful thinking"?


And the sum of our personal experiences, both negative and positive. That's also a major factor.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:28 am

Fridmarr wrote:Where's the people in that? You never mention them, you simply lump it all into "religion" which is the same absurd logic that's always used to justify the most evil of things. You just went on for paragraphs explaining how all (err *usually) religion is a man made thing , but when it comes to your critique, you never criticize the people, just religion.


I'm steering pretty clear of the religion debate this time around. I've had enough of it lately, and I'd be liable to suffer an aneurysm if I had to debate it right now, but I wanted to make a few points.

@Fridmarr
If he says that Religion is a man made thing, and then he goes about critiquing Religion, he is in fact critiquing the people by definition, because without the people, there would be no religion in his determination. It's an ideology, that I agree with. Faith, is always defined as a more personal "thing" when dealing with "religion", while "Religion" is more of a social construct.

@Contradictions in the bible.
As to pointing out the contradictions in the bible, one of the biggest is found in the New Testament. Compare the geneologies given by Luke, and Matthew for Jesus. There are glaring discrepancies between the two.

The big thing that people trip all over themselves about the bible, is that they think that this is some giant text that belongs together. It's the holy word of God! But it's not. Even if it was divinely inspired.

It's a collection of texts written by dozens men. Some of the texts are written as personal journals, and some of them (Genesis) were written 2500+ years later, by someone who obviously did not witness the events. And some of them, were outright "predicting the future" (Revelations and the prophets of the late Old Testament as the biggest examples).

These were not written by one man. They were not written by 2 men. They were written by dozens of men, who lived across the ages. They were assembled into a book, and claimed as divine, many years later. Moses didn't write Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers and Dueteronomy, expecting that they would later be chopped into separate "books", and then placed in a "bigger" book, with other "Books" and used as an overarching holy text. He most likely wrote those texts as a work for his people. To ensure that the traditions, and culture, and history of his people would be protected, as well as their faith.

He didn't know that thousands of years later, a man named Paul would write, and then a thousand or so years later, someone would decide that they all needed to go in the same book.

And there are plenty of texts out there that are held by the Catholic Church, Jewish Sects, and other Religious entities that detail many things from the time period. They are historical records of a culture over the years, and a biased historical record as well. Without reading, and understanding other historical texts from the time, it's hard to understand some of the "why" in the bible.

Why weren't they allowed to eat pork or Shellfish? Because that was a long time ago, and they weren't capable of ensuring that it would be clean, and safe to eat.
Why does the New Testament speak heavily on Sexual Deviancy? Because they were pushing back against the incredibly debaucherous culture of the time. Go look up Caligula. There is a reason his life became fodder for a porn. Then, consider that by most accounts, Caligula rose to power shortly after the events of the life of Christ as we know it.

There are reasons why the bible says things, and not all of them are related to Faith. Many of them were/are related to everyday life of the time.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:21 am

Shoju wrote:@Fridmarr
If he says that Religion is a man made thing, and then he goes about critiquing Religion, he is in fact critiquing the people by definition, because without the people, there would be no religion in his determination. It's an ideology, that I agree with. Faith, is always defined as a more personal "thing" when dealing with "religion", while "Religion" is more of a social construct.


Right but that doesn't change anything.  "Religion" is the broadest possible reference and it's a slippery slope.  To take your comment further, since humans made religion, that's like saying, humanity said the earth 5000 years old, so humanity is stupid.  Humanity persecuted scientists who said it wasn't, so humanity is evil.  We are all humans so we are all stupid and evil.
 
Religion didn't "say" those things, some people interpreteted religious texts to mean that, in spite of evidence to the contrary.  People will believe what they want to believe and do what they want to do, religion isn't a provervbial gun to anyone's head.  It's a series of choices and actions that leads one to accept a religion, adhere to a religion, adhere to a specific intepretation of a religion, and to ignore evidence to the contrary. 
 
If you want to rip on folks for reaching such conclusions, that's fine, but don't try to pin it on "religion".
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:44 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Religion didn't "say" those things, some people interpreteted religious texts to mean that, in spite of evidence to the contrary.  People will believe what they want to believe and do what they want to do, religion isn't a provervbial gun to anyone's head.  It's a series of choices and actions that leads one to accept a religion, adhere to a religion, adhere to a specific intepretation of a religion, and to ignore evidence to the contrary. 
 
If you want to rip on folks for reaching such conclusions, that's fine, but don't try to pin it on "religion".

Well what do you call it when a whole bunch of people with nothing more in common than they go to the same kind of church believe that their god created the heavens and the earth and all creatures upon the earth just as they are, such that "evolution is hooey" as has been proclaimed by a member of the Texas board of education?

If a whole bunch of people believing in the same way about their god isn't a religion, what do you call it?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Cogglamp » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:02 pm

WTB political discussion and move religion discussion to separate forum. Pst with price.

Separation of church and state people.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:03 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Right but that doesn't change anything.  "Religion" is the broadest possible reference and it's a slippery slope.  To take your comment further, since humans made religion, that's like saying, humanity said the earth 5000 years old, so humanity is stupid.  Humanity persecuted scientists who said it wasn't, so humanity is evil.  We are all humans so we are all stupid and evil.


Yes. It is the broadest term. No, it's not the perfect term. Even the bible aludes to humans being evil, wicked, terrible creatures, until they find god. It's riddle throughout both the old and New Testament. Jesus even says in Matthew 7, that there is one but good. God.

Fridmarr wrote:Religion didn't "say" those things, some people interpreteted religious texts to mean that, in spite of evidence to the contrary. 


Well of course "Religion" didn't say that. It can't speak. It's not a sentient "thing" it's a societal construct created by people.

Fridmarr wrote: People will believe what they want to believe and do what they want to do, religion isn't a provervbial gun to anyone's head.


Yeah. You're right. I forgot about all the stunning talks I had growing up.

Don't listen to that, you'll go to hell
Don't have sex before marriage, you'll go to hell
Don't masturbate, you'll go to hell
Don't get tattoos, you'll go to hell
Don't be gay, you'll go to hell
Don't have an abortion, you'll go to hell
Don't use Birth Control, you'll go to hell.

All of these things, based on Doctrines of Religion.
Yes. Totally never ever used as a "Gun to someone's head" :roll:
It's not the gun against someone's head to get them to conform. It's the gun against someone's head to keep them inline.

These aren't things believed by one person. These are beliefs held by entire denominations of Christian people. And what is a denomination? A subset of a religion.

It's a series of choices and actions that leads one to accept a religion, adhere to a religion, adhere to a specific intepretation of a religion, and to ignore evidence to the contrary. 


Which, from my perspective is 100% completely the problem. You and I have debated it before. I think that the current position of religion is a sham. People want their sermons from the pulpit on Sunday, Wednesday, or Saturday, or whatever other holy day their denomination has, but they don't want to read, they don't want to question, they don't want to understand.

They have accepted the societal construct that is their religion, and choose not to question it, or the people who "administer" it.

 
If you want to rip on folks for reaching such conclusions, that's fine, but don't try to pin it on "religion".
[/quote]

Well, I will continue to "Rip" Religion for it. Religion, from my perspective, (and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone here) is the problem. Religion, the societal construct, is the problem. Not Faith. I have no problem with Faith. I find myself more conflicted in my beliefs than most. But Religion, in the definition of the societal surroundings, is very much the problem.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:24 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Religion didn't "say" those things, some people interpreteted religious texts to mean that, in spite of evidence to the contrary.  People will believe what they want to believe and do what they want to do, religion isn't a provervbial gun to anyone's head.  It's a series of choices and actions that leads one to accept a religion, adhere to a religion, adhere to a specific intepretation of a religion, and to ignore evidence to the contrary. 
 
If you want to rip on folks for reaching such conclusions, that's fine, but don't try to pin it on "religion".

Well what do you call it when a whole bunch of people with nothing more in common than they go to the same kind of church believe that their god created the heavens and the earth and all creatures upon the earth just as they are, such that "evolution is hooey" as has been proclaimed by a member of the Texas board of education?

If a whole bunch of people believing in the same way about their god isn't a religion, what do you call it?

"A religion" is not the same thing as "religion" the same way that "a man" is not same thing as "mankind".

Are there lots of people who believe that evolution is hooey because they believe that their religion says so and choose their religion over scientific theory? Of course. But are there also a lot of religious people that have no such entanglement with science? That evolution is merely the natural process of God's will? Of course. Why do you insist on lumping them into the same bucket? Again science and religion are not necessarily opposed.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:08 pm

Shoju wrote:Yes. It is the broadest term. No, it's not the perfect term. Even the bible aludes to humans being evil, wicked, terrible creatures, until they find god. It's riddle throughout both the old and New Testament. Jesus even says in Matthew 7, that there is one but good. God.

Are you seriously suggesting that's OK to use such language because the bible does the same thing?  Do you always treat people by association with a demographic?  I find that appalling.  It's at the root of some of the worst sorts of behavior of mankind.
 
Shoju wrote:Well of course "Religion" didn't say that. It can't speak. It's not a sentient "thing" it's a societal construct created by people.
It's also not a singular entity and not capable of having a singular position, which is the point.
 
Shoju wrote:Yeah. You're right. I forgot about all the stunning talks I had growing up.

Don't listen to that, you'll go to hell
Don't have sex before marriage, you'll go to hell
Don't masturbate, you'll go to hell
Don't get tattoos, you'll go to hell
Don't be gay, you'll go to hell
Don't have an abortion, you'll go to hell
Don't use Birth Control, you'll go to hell.

Oh right, because those are really effective.  Nothing convinces a person to not do something like a threat that they'll go to hell (which again...not a universal axiom of religion).  How many on that list have you done/supported?  I'm guessing it's not zero...that's a pretty shitty gun, or are you actually posting from hell?  They aren't based on doctrines of religion, they are based on doctrines of a religion...I have no idea which one, but there's probably one out there like that.
 
Shoju wrote:Which, from my perspective is 100% completely the problem. You and I have debated it before. I think that the current position of religion is a sham. People want their sermons from the pulpit on Sunday, Wednesday, or Saturday, or whatever other holy day their denomination has, but they don't want to read, they don't want to question, they don't want to understand.

They have accepted the societal construct that is their religion, and choose not to question it, or the people who "administer" it.
I'm glad that you presume to know what people want and what they do.  I mean based on the stellar examples of religious influences that you have commented on in your life, it's clear that you ought have the entire planet figured out.  I'm sorry that your interactions have been so terrible for you, I really am, but I don't think that projecting them on to everybody else paints an accurate picture.  How familiar are you with people of faiths that aren't Christian?  I'm just curious because everything you rail about seems limited to that group.
 
Shoju wrote:Well, I will continue to "Rip" Religion for it. Religion, from my perspective, (and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone here) is the problem. Religion, the societal construct, is the problem. Not Faith. I have no problem with Faith. I find myself more conflicted in my beliefs than most. But Religion, in the definition of the societal surroundings, is very much the problem.

Yes, unfortunately you are not alone.  Sadly, it's a rather common position.  Religion the societal construct isn't anything special.  It's not particularly different than most other of the countless societal constructs.  It can be good, bad, or indifferent.  I'm glad we don't treat the local book club like we do the KKK though.  Maybe we should look at each religious group on its own merits instead of on our own interactions with religion or whatever stereotype we want to apply to them.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:13 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Koatanga wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Religion didn't "say" those things, some people interpreteted religious texts to mean that, in spite of evidence to the contrary.  People will believe what they want to believe and do what they want to do, religion isn't a provervbial gun to anyone's head.  It's a series of choices and actions that leads one to accept a religion, adhere to a religion, adhere to a specific intepretation of a religion, and to ignore evidence to the contrary. 
 
If you want to rip on folks for reaching such conclusions, that's fine, but don't try to pin it on "religion".

Well what do you call it when a whole bunch of people with nothing more in common than they go to the same kind of church believe that their god created the heavens and the earth and all creatures upon the earth just as they are, such that "evolution is hooey" as has been proclaimed by a member of the Texas board of education?

If a whole bunch of people believing in the same way about their god isn't a religion, what do you call it?

"A religion" is not the same thing as "religion" the same way that "a man" is not same thing as "mankind".

Are there lots of people who believe that evolution is hooey because they believe that their religion says so and choose their religion over scientific theory? Of course. But are there also a lot of religious people that have no such entanglement with science? That evolution is merely the natural process of God's will? Of course. Why do you insist on lumping them into the same bucket? Again science and religion are not necessarily opposed.

That's just semantics, isn't it? Can you not infer from context that when I am talking about religious people who believe in creationism and take Genesis literally that I am speaking about those people among those particular religions who espouse those beliefs?

When I said that where religion and science disagree, science has been correct every time, clearly I am referring to instances where "a religion" or "persons within a religion sharing the same belief" believed something contrary to science, such as creationism or Noah's ark.

Clearly I am not saying that every member of every religion believes the same thing.

To what level do I need to refine the term such that I can speak without being bogged down with semantics? Do I need to specify the religion, the individual church, or whether it is the 8 am or 10 am service? Because I do not have a list of all the individuals in the US who believe in creationism - I only have a Gallup poll reporting that a whopping 40% of Americans believe in a strict interpretation of creationism: http://www.gallup.com/poll/145286/Four- ... onism.aspx

69% of Americans are very or moderately religious: http://www.gallup.com/poll/159050/seven ... gious.aspx So the majority of religious people in the US believe in a strict interpretation of creationism, if one assumes that none of the nonreligious people believe in creationism, which seems logical, although we are talking about Americans here...

When the majority of people feel the same way, can you use the general term to describe them? Is it invalid to say "religioius people believe something" when in the general sense it is true, but on the specific level it may or may not be? Can I say "tigers are orange with black stripes" or do I need to qualify that by including white tigers? At what percentage does the general become acceptable?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:25 am

69% of Americans are very or moderately religious: http://www.gallup.com/poll/159050/seven ... gious.aspx So the majority of religious people in the US believe in a strict interpretation of creationism, if one assumes that none of the nonreligious people believe in creationism, which seems logical, although we are talking about Americans here...

Selfdescribing as "very" or "Moderately" religious does not mean that each and every one of them subscribes to every "very" or "moderately" relifious or fanatical idea (depending on how you describe it).

Also, on the faith/science intersection - science doesn't explain why, it explains how (and the causality of how).
For instance, science explains how lightning is formed physcially due to the different charge of ground and clouds or inbetween clouds. That does not preclude that the metaphysical reason for the lightning isn't Zeus, Thor or God.

An analogy, a microwave oven pushes waterparticles in food so it heats up. That explains why food gets hot causality. But it doesn't explain that it only does so because I started the microwave - now imaginge you could observe the effects and causality of the microwave, and could explain the workings of the microwave oven (on a much larger scale), but couldn't percieve or explain me - some would say that science in such a world would deny my existance, but it doesn't, it simply explains what can be percieved and what can be explained.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:54 am

Koatanga wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Koatanga wrote:Well what do you call it when a whole bunch of people with nothing more in common than they go to the same kind of church believe that their god created the heavens and the earth and all creatures upon the earth just as they are, such that "evolution is hooey" as has been proclaimed by a member of the Texas board of education?

If a whole bunch of people believing in the same way about their god isn't a religion, what do you call it?

"A religion" is not the same thing as "religion" the same way that "a man" is not same thing as "mankind".

Are there lots of people who believe that evolution is hooey because they believe that their religion says so and choose their religion over scientific theory? Of course. But are there also a lot of religious people that have no such entanglement with science? That evolution is merely the natural process of God's will? Of course. Why do you insist on lumping them into the same bucket? Again science and religion are not necessarily opposed.

That's just semantics, isn't it? Can you not infer from context that when I am talking about religious people who believe in creationism and take Genesis literally that I am speaking about those people among those particular religions who espouse those beliefs?

When I said that where religion and science disagree, science has been correct every time, clearly I am referring to instances where "a religion" or "persons within a religion sharing the same belief" believed something contrary to science, such as creationism or Noah's ark.

Clearly I am not saying that every member of every religion believes the same thing.

To what level do I need to refine the term such that I can speak without being bogged down with semantics? Do I need to specify the religion, the individual church, or whether it is the 8 am or 10 am service? Because I do not have a list of all the individuals in the US who believe in creationism - I only have a Gallup poll reporting that a whopping 40% of Americans believe in a strict interpretation of creationism: http://www.gallup.com/poll/145286/Four- ... onism.aspx

69% of Americans are very or moderately religious: http://www.gallup.com/poll/159050/seven ... gious.aspx So the majority of religious people in the US believe in a strict interpretation of creationism, if one assumes that none of the nonreligious people believe in creationism, which seems logical, although we are talking about Americans here...

When the majority of people feel the same way, can you use the general term to describe them? Is it invalid to say "religioius people believe something" when in the general sense it is true, but on the specific level it may or may not be? Can I say "tigers are orange with black stripes" or do I need to qualify that by including white tigers? At what percentage does the general become acceptable?


Welcome to the wonderful world of Science, where every word must be carefully analysed and selected to correctly describe the phenomena, and where expansive definitions are the norm. :D

Seriously, don't expect touching "soft" sciences like sociology without having to throw long detailed explanations of who and what you're talking about - devil's in the detail on these matters.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Passionario » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:58 am

Koatanga wrote:Well what do you call it when a whole bunch of people with nothing more in common than they go to the same kind of church believe that their god created the heavens and the earth and all creatures upon the earth just as they are, such that "evolution is hooey" as has been proclaimed by a member of the Texas board of education?

I'd call it "stupidity". Maybe "epistemophobia" if I wanted to sound posh. :)

And no, it's not synonymous with or caused by religion. As someone who grew up in Soviet Union (with its tradition of militant atheism), I can attest that non-religious people can be just as stupid, bigoted, belligerently ignorant, resolutely opposed to all new knowledge and stuck in their dogmatic ways as the worst Bible-thumping fanatics.

Koatanga wrote:69% of Americans are very or moderately religious: http://www.gallup.com/poll/159050/seven ... gious.aspx


Which means that picking a different framework for this issue is not only reasonable, but strategically correct.

Let's try a simple thought experiment:

Imagine that it's election year 2040, and you are running for the presidential office. Your main opponent's core political program boils down to "our country is so awesome, therefore let's murder the shit out of everyone". Gallup polls indicate that 69% of the voters are very or moderately patriotic.

If you want to defeat him and save the world, what will be a better response - "yes, our country is awesome; however, mass murder is a horrible atrocity and is against the laws of our awesome country, so don't vote for this dangerous lunatic" or "no, our country is mediocre at best - in fact, it pretty much sucks donkey balls most of the time - so if there's anyone who should be wiped out for the good of humanity, it's us"?

Likewise, if you approach the current situation as "us vs. religion" issue, the aforementioned 69% will be your enemies, and you'll likely lose. If, on other hand, you present it as 'us vs. bunch of nutjobs from Texas education board', they can be your greatest allies. Tell them that God does not exist and only a delusional idiot would believe in him, and you'll hand their support to the indoctrinators on a silver plate. Convince them that hatemongering and brainwashing children is antithetical to the teachings of Christ and offensive to God, and they'll tear fundamentalists a new one.

Does that sound cold and manipulative? Well, it is the Politics thread. :)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:05 am

Passionario wrote:
Koatanga wrote:Well what do you call it when a whole bunch of people with nothing more in common than they go to the same kind of church believe that their god created the heavens and the earth and all creatures upon the earth just as they are, such that "evolution is hooey" as has been proclaimed by a member of the Texas board of education?

I'd call it "stupidity". Maybe "epistemophobia" if I wanted to sound posh. :)

And no, it's not synonymous with or caused by religion. As someone who grew up in Soviet Union (with its tradition of militant atheism), I can attest that non-religious people can be just as stupid, bigoted, belligerently ignorant, resolutely opposed to all new knowledge and stuck in their dogmatic ways as the worst Bible-thumping fanatics.


As the recent gay legislation proved, if I'm not mistaken. Funny, how Mother Russia is so much less faithful than the U.S., but still has such a hard time tackling the very same social issues. Or maybe it's me not really understanding Russian politics?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Passionario » Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:53 am

Sagara wrote:As the recent gay legislation proved, if I'm not mistaken. Funny, how Mother Russia is so much less faithful than the U.S., but still has such a hard time tackling the very same social issues. Or maybe it's me not really understanding Russian politics?


No, you've nailed it. :(

The flavor of bullshit is different here, but the core components are the same - entrenched stupidity and oppression of everything that is different. You can take Shoju's list, replace "...you'll go to hell" with '...it's unnatural', '...it's not patriotic' or '...it's a menace to society', and it will be spot on.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:48 am

Sagara wrote:As the recent gay legislation proved, if I'm not mistaken. Funny, how Mother Russia is so much less faithful than the U.S., but still has such a hard time tackling the very same social issues. Or maybe it's me not really understanding Russian politics?


The Soviet Union was agressivly atheistic. Russia, on the other hand, has seen a great resurgence in religious beliefs. The patriarch of the orthodox church has a very close relationship with Putin.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:56 am

Paxen wrote:The Soviet Union was agressivly atheistic. Russia, on the other hand, has seen a great resurgence in religious beliefs. The patriarch of the orthodox church has a very close relationship with Putin.


But from the looks of it, they decided to paint it in the colors of nature, antipatriotism and antisocial instead of sinful. Different coat of paint for the same brand of hatred.

I guess

Image

is appropriate.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:58 am

Let's be honest... everyone is gay compared to Putin, the paragon of manliness... =P

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Although to be fair, George Bush Sr. looks manlier here =P

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Now for something tangential...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/1 ... 79403.html
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby aureon » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:42 am

How was that manga called? it freaking rocked.
For necroing the quiz:

Economic Left/Right: -9.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.90

Not surprising, since i'm ideologically a communist, really.

For something tangentially related: Does anyone here subscribe to Austrian economics over Keynesian? if so, why?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Passionario » Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:56 am

Paxen wrote:The patriarch of the orthodox church has a very close relationship with Putin.


He's also a living example of the old saying about power and corruption, along with many other higher-ups of ROC.

The scandals involving Catholic priests tend to involve forbidden lusts; among their Orthodox counterparts, greed is a far more popular sin. For instance, back in the nineties, the Orthodox Church convinced the government to grant it an exemption from customs fees in order to 'import humanitarian aid' - then used it to funnel cigarettes, strong alcohol, caviar and luxury cars. The patriarch himself recently gave a public speech on the dangers of consumerism and the importance of plain and humble living... while brandishing a gold wristwatch worth over 34000 euros.

That said, this kind of thing is par for the course for Russian powers that be. We've got officials from Ministry of Home Affairs abducting businessmen for ransom, agents of Federal Drug Control Service overdosing on cocaine and heroin, representatives of the Parliamentary Committee for Matters Concerning Young Persons with a taste for teenage girls and the Chief State Health Inspector who believes that a human body does not need more than two hours of sleep per day. :(
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:12 am

I sometimes think that the Soviet Union is a terrible example of communism (whether you want to praise it or demonize it), because it's communism seen through the very weird lense that is Russia.

Russia hasn't exactly been a model state before the Soviet era nor after it. Or during, for that matter.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:32 pm

Nooska wrote:
69% of Americans are very or moderately religious: http://www.gallup.com/poll/159050/seven ... gious.aspx So the majority of religious people in the US believe in a strict interpretation of creationism, if one assumes that none of the nonreligious people believe in creationism, which seems logical, although we are talking about Americans here...

Selfdescribing as "very" or "Moderately" religious does not mean that each and every one of them subscribes to every "very" or "moderately" relifious or fanatical idea (depending on how you describe it).

Also, on the faith/science intersection - science doesn't explain why, it explains how (and the causality of how).
For instance, science explains how lightning is formed physcially due to the different charge of ground and clouds or inbetween clouds. That does not preclude that the metaphysical reason for the lightning isn't Zeus, Thor or God.

An analogy, a microwave oven pushes waterparticles in food so it heats up. That explains why food gets hot causality. But it doesn't explain that it only does so because I started the microwave - now imaginge you could observe the effects and causality of the microwave, and could explain the workings of the microwave oven (on a much larger scale), but couldn't perceive or explain me - some would say that science in such a world would deny my existence, but it doesn't, it simply explains what can be perceived and what can be explained.

Actually biological science can explain why you feel a sensation you interpret as "hunger". Economics can explain why you resort to microwavable food. Physical science can explain the workings of the microwave. Heck, sociologists and marketing experts can explain the advertising triggers that caused you to purchase the specific thing you are cooking. There are no mysteries there whatsoever.

Physical science can show that weather patterns cause circumstances in which a build up of charged particles leads inevitably to a lightning strike. No intelligence is required to create and/or guide the lightning.

Frightened people seeing bright lights and hearing loud bangs might invent an intelligence behind the lightning so that they might feel safer - if they please the intelligence they are less likely to be struck by the scary flashes from the sky. They can even use it to keep frightened children in line - be good or the big scary flash will cook you like it did that cow the other day. It can even be used to advance someone's social status - I have survived the great flash from the sky, therefore I am touched by the intelligence and am most fit to lead - once I stop twitching and smouldering.

No intelligence is required to create lightning - it just happens due to physical conditions leading to the discharge of electricity. Humans seeking patterns in everything invent the metaphysics to explain that which they don't understand.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:38 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Are you seriously suggesting that's OK to use such language because the bible does the same thing?  Do you always treat people by association with a demographic?  I find that appalling.  It's at the root of some of the worst sorts of behavior of mankind.


I'm not suggesting that. Are you saying that t's appalling when I say it, but when a Religion's Text says it, it's ok? That the Bible and "God" can paint all of humanity in broad strokes, and that's ok, but when Shoju says it on a forum, WATCHOUT! That's appalling?

You're right, it is at the heart of some of the worst sorts of behavior that Mankind has ever seen. The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, The Holocaust. It was all centered around treating people by association.

It's terrible and tragic, but Admitting that it's the broadest term, and that it's not perfect, and then pointing out that in your example, Religious Text does what you have a problem with, isn't appalling.

 
It's also not a singular entity and not capable of having a singular position, which is the point.


You're right. It's not a singular entity. Which is part of the problem. From the outside, it's "Religion", even though from a more "realistic" perspective, it's not. If you get right down to it, and apply rationale to it, you can see that it's not a singular entity. The problem is, because of the negative interactions that end up occurring, You end up where people with a problem with " a religion" end up lumping it together with the ones that they might not have a problem with.

Is it right? no.
Is it fair? no.
Is it what people do? Yes. I'm even guilty of it at times.

 
Shoju wrote:Yeah. You're right. I forgot about all the stunning talks I had growing up.

Don't listen to that, you'll go to hell
Don't have sex before marriage, you'll go to hell
Don't masturbate, you'll go to hell
Don't get tattoos, you'll go to hell
Don't be gay, you'll go to hell
Don't have an abortion, you'll go to hell
Don't use Birth Control, you'll go to hell.

Oh right, because those are really effective.  Nothing convinces a person to not do something like a threat that they'll go to hell (which again...not a universal axiom of religion).  How many on that list have you done/supported?  I'm guessing it's not zero...that's a pretty shitty gun, or are you actually posting from hell?  They aren't based on doctrines of religion, they are based on doctrines of a religion...I have no idea which one, but there's probably one out there like that.


They are BANKING on the idea, that Hell is scary enough to keep you in line. MANY Conservative Christian Churches would label everything I posted as a sin. If you Sin, and don't repent, you go to hell. Period.

I'm not posting from hell. That's my main point. I'm alive, and well. but that doesn't stop conservative Christian Churches from using it as a gun. You could trim the list down if you want, and reach a far higher demographic of the Christian, and even Abrahamic Faiths. Doctrine, and religious regulations, are the issue.

Sex Before Marriage is a sin according to Abrahamic Faiths, including Christian/Catholic, Judaism, and Islam. Sin, without repentance, and a life dedicated to god = Hell.
The Bible Calls it Fornication in the KJ translation, and it is spoken about as a sin throughout the new testament.

Masturbating is a sin according to the Abrahamic Faiths, including Christian/Catholic, Judaism, and Islam. Sin, without repentance, and a life dedicated to god = Hell.
While it isn't as expressly described in the bible, The most common source of ire towards it comes from Matthew 5:28-29 Where it is referenced that even thinking of a woman in an impure way is a sin (fantasizing). This is the basis for a large portion of Sexual Morality Doctrine.

Homosexuality is a sin according to the Abrahamic Faiths, including Christian/Catholic, Judaism, and Islam. Sin, without repentance, and a life dedicated to god = Hell.
Christians quote multiple places throughout the bible that they believe speak directly towards this. I'll leave out the differentiations that there are, the debate about whether it does or doesn't say what they say isn't meant for this. It's the basis of the doctrine that they use to tell you that you are going to hell.

Abortion is a sin according to the Abrahamic Faiths, including Christian/Catholic, Judaism, and Islam. Sin, without repentance, and a life dedicated to god = Hell.
Most notably, from the bible, they quote Jeremiah 1:5, where it is said that God knew you before he formed you in the womb, meaning that from the time that you are conceived, you are a person, and abortion is the same as murder. It's a sin. It's the doctrine. I've not met too many churches who disagree on this one.

Tattoos is a pretty denomination specific type of thing. Many Pentacostal churches are ambivalent, deferring to subject matter, over the act, while other, more socially conservative denominations are rather serious about it.

Birth Control is sort of hit or miss, but the largest denomination of Christian Doctrine (Catholicism) considers it a sin. That's a pretty big slice of the pie.

I'm glad that you presume to know what people want and what they do.  I mean based on the stellar examples of religious influences that you have commented on in your life, it's clear that you ought have the entire planet figured out.  I'm sorry that your interactions have been so terrible for you, I really am, but I don't think that projecting them on to everybody else paints an accurate picture.  How familiar are you with people of faiths that aren't Christian?  I'm just curious because everything you rail about seems limited to that group.


That's not a far leap to make. Consider, that if I were wrong in assuming that the majority of those in a religious setting want the safety and security of being "shepherded" that we would see far more pastors, and far less people in the pew. Far less Super Churches, Far more smaller Churches.

My life and religion sucked. It was terrible. I could write a novel about the batshit insane ideas that were shoved in my head as a kid and teenager. Some of it, purposeful, meaning to be "scary" things, and other things, that were just terribly stupid things to tell a 4 year old boy about why his brother died.

I'm highly critical of them. I'm more than slightly educated on the other Abrahamic Faiths, but I wouldn't call myself an expert. I'll admit my shortcomings when it comes to non Abrahamic Faiths. They've fascinated me, but I've not studied them as much as the Abrahamic Faiths. A lot of my issues are implicitly with the Abrahamic Faith(s). I wouldn't be highly critical of Hinduism, or Buddism, since I'm not familiar with them. I wont even say that they "sound better" than others, because my knowledge on their subject matter is just that limited.

On the other hand, I'm well versed in Christianity, learning more about Catholicism specifically, and I have more than a passing knowledge of Judaism and Islam.


Yes, unfortunately you are not alone.  Sadly, it's a rather common position.  Religion the societal construct isn't anything special.  It's not particularly different than most other of the countless societal constructs.  It can be good, bad, or indifferent.  I'm glad we don't treat the local book club like we do the KKK though.  Maybe we should look at each religious group on its own merits instead of on our own interactions with religion or whatever stereotype we want to apply to them.


I take issue with Religion and specifically those that I do, because too often the goal is control and conformity, by pushing a fear. I have much respect for some Christian Pastors, and their work. One of the biggest reasons that I still struggle with my beliefs, is because of a Christian Pastor, and his message. His views are more progressive, and pushes for people to learn, read, and understand. And lately, he's taken a lot of heat over his beliefs, because he pushes a more "passive" less damning outlook. When I read his works, and watch his DvD's, There is something about it that seems more inline with what I think the goal of Christianity should be.

Maybe my beef is with a very vocal minority. Maybe things are more progressive now than they have been before. That is a distinct possibility. But it took 20+ years to get me to a point where I reviled the modern Christian Church as a "religious entity". It's colored how I look at religions. It makes me tense up when I start looking at doctrine, and see the same old habits, and ways used in "different" manners.

And really, I think if we're going to continue to have a faith war, we should move it out of the political thread.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:00 pm

aureon wrote:How was that manga called? it freaking rocked.


Legend of Koizumi, in which Pope Benedict, Putin, Yulia Timoshenko, Junichiro Koizumi, Papa Bush and Bush Jr fight Hitler using the power of Mahjong.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:07 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Nooska wrote:An analogy, a microwave oven pushes waterparticles in food so it heats up. That explains why food gets hot causality. But it doesn't explain that it only does so because I started the microwave - now imaginge you could observe the effects and causality of the microwave, and could explain the workings of the microwave oven (on a much larger scale), but couldn't perceive or explain me - some would say that science in such a world would deny my existence, but it doesn't, it simply explains what can be perceived and what can be explained.
Physical science can show that weather patterns cause circumstances in which a build up of charged particles leads inevitably to a lightning strike. No intelligence is required to create and/or guide the lightning.

...

No intelligence is required to create lightning - it just happens due to physical conditions leading to the discharge of electricity. Humans seeking patterns in everything invent the metaphysics to explain that which they don't understand.

I could be interpreting what Nooska was saying incorrectly, but what I got out of his post was "how do we know there isn't an intelligence behind the build up of the particles required to create a lightning strike?" Sure, we can prove, maybe even recreate, how a lightning strike occurs, but that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't an intelligent being behind the movement of those particles.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:25 pm

Skye1013 wrote:I could be interpreting what Nooska was saying incorrectly, but what I got out of his post was "how do we know there isn't an intelligence behind the build up of the particles required to create a lightning strike?" Sure, we can prove, maybe even recreate, how a lightning strike occurs, but that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't an intelligent being behind the movement of those particles.

It cannot be proven that there isn't an intelligence behind it in the same way that it cannot be proven that you are not a space alien. Hint: Any proof you can provide will be dismissed as your attempt to hide your alien nature.

It is logically impossible to disprove a negative.

I did understand what Nooska was saying. My response is that there are physical mechanics that take place in the atmosphere that lead to a build up of electrons at that particular place at that particular time that results in a discharge.

If a butterfly flaps its wings in the tropics, it could propagate a chain of events that would cause that lightning bolt to strike 1mm to the left or the right, but it's pretty much going to strike where it's going to strike, based on scientific principles. The events leading up to the strike are also consistent with the physical laws governing the universe as we understand them, as are the events leading to those events, and so on, and so on.

Now, if out of a clear blue sky on a calm summer's day a tornado suddenly spawned, without wall clouds or wind shears or the like, that would be something entirely inconsistent with physical laws and I may accept the argument of an intelligence behind it. But a lightning strike from a storm cloud that completely obeys all physical laws? I see nothing in that to suggest intelligence.
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