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Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:26 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:
Sagara wrote:Although, in pure honesty, the blame lays more in the human being wielding the religion than the faith itself (I wouldn't even use the word "religion" as the hand of Man is found everywhere on it).

Exactly! Religion and science are not necessarily mutually exclusive things.

They sure seem to be when it comes to Texas textbooks. I cringe to think of children growing up thinking creationism and evolution are equally valid, and that the scientific use of the term "theory" equates to the colloquial use synonymous with "hunch".


You are misunderstanding our point.  Those folks in Texas putting stuff in textbooks aren't "religion" they are people interpreting a religion.  And frankly, the most prominent authority of their own religion disagrees with them.  I don't think the bible says "evolution is wrong" and I think reading genesis and concluding it is at odds with evolution is an individual interpretation but that's an entirely different topic.

There's no universal set of religious rules, so the notion that "religion says" anything is kind of silly.  That's like saying humanity says 2+2=5 because some member of humanity probably did at some point.  Passionario pointed out some things "science says" that are/were wrong, which provides a proper context.  It's not that science is wrong, it's that the people implementing the science were wrong.  It's no different with religion and I think it's a bit unfair to categorize it differently for the benefit of a perspective. 
 
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:17 pm

Fridmarr wrote:You are misunderstanding our point.  Those folks in Texas putting stuff in textbooks aren't "religion" they are people interpreting a religion.  And frankly, the most prominent authority of their own religion disagrees with them.  I don't think the bible says "evolution is wrong" and I think reading genesis and concluding it is at odds with evolution is an individual interpretation but that's an entirely different topic.

There's no universal set of religious rules, so the notion that "religion says" anything is kind of silly.  That's like saying humanity says 2+2=5 because some member of humanity probably did at some point.  Passionario pointed out some things "science says" that are/were wrong, which provides a proper context.  It's not that science is wrong, it's that the people implementing the science were wrong.  It's no different with religion and I think it's a bit unfair to categorize it differently for the benefit of a perspective. 
 

Actually I don't think you're getting my point. Religions are made of and by people, not god. Belief in a higher power is not religion.

Per Dictionary.com:

Religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

The devotional and ritual observances and moral code are constructs of people, not god. Whether you are Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, or one of several other protestant Christian sects, you believe in the same god, but the *religion* is different. So it is not the belief that makes people behave a certain way, but the particular expression of that belief guided by whatever religion they belong to.

And I assure you that it is mainstream in some of these religions that god created the world exactly as described in Genesis, and the world is a bit over 6000 years old, and all species were created exactly as they exist to day, and evolution is a load of hooey.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:39 pm

On a humorous note:

I submit the following as proof god doesn't exist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kppx4bzfAaE

If he did exist, he'd kill these people with lightning.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:09 pm

Koatanga wrote:Actually I don't think you're getting my point. Religions are made of and by people, not god. Belief in a higher power is not religion.

Per Dictionary.com:

Religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

The devotional and ritual observances and moral code are constructs of people, not god. Whether you are Baptist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, or one of several other protestant Christian sects, you believe in the same god, but the *religion* is different. So it is not the belief that makes people behave a certain way, but the particular expression of that belief guided by whatever religion they belong to.

And I assure you that it is mainstream in some of these religions that god created the world exactly as described in Genesis, and the world is a bit over 6000 years old, and all species were created exactly as they exist to day, and evolution is a load of hooey.

Yeah yeah, I saw your comments about man made religion in your previous post, but that's inconsistent with many of your other posts which is where the problem is. In fact even in this post you go right back to it in your last paragraph. Here are some more examples:
Koatanga wrote:Religion told us the earth was flat. Religion told us that the earth was the center of the solar system and that sick people were possessed by demons. Brilliant men were imprisoned and killed because they dared to challenge religious doctrine. In the science-vs-religion debate over the centuries, religion has been wrong every single time. It has slowed the advance of scientific progress, killed scientists, and destroyed research...

What I am saying is that where religion and science have had disagreements, religion has always been proven wrong.
Where's the people in that? You never mention them, you simply lump it all into "religion" which is the same absurd logic that's always used to justify the most evil of things. You just went on for paragraphs explaining how all (err *usually) religion is a man made thing , but when it comes to your critique, you never criticize the people, just religion.

By the way, this notion religion always loses to science is really pretty ridiculous. It's kind of like saying apples always taste better than oranges.

Even ignoring the ethics involved when science is applied, which is certainly a bit more muddy, how do you categorize all the scientific theories that failed? For instance, there have been many scientific theories to challenge ID that have been proven wrong and we may not yet have one that is entirely correct, that doesn't mean that ID is correct but sometimes it's the science/challenges coming from ID or religious scientists that challenge those ultimately failed theories. How many scientists have said that parting the Red Sea was ridiculous before some research proved it possible? What about where complex life began on earth? I believe Genesis says the ocean as does every science class I ever took, but now some researchers have found evidence that it began on land...What if it turns out to be the ocean? Who wins? No one, because it's simply a logical fallacy.

You are basically putting a religious theory up against an infinite number of scientific theories and don't declare a winner until the one scientific theory is correct, then ignore all the wrong scientific theories, and if the scientific theory matches the religious theory it's a draw otherwise science wins...It's a futile exercise, you might as well flip a two headed coin.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:53 pm

If a belief was true, then the religion based around that belief, i.e. that which is created by the people who follow that belief (aka the "religion" because religion is the people, not the belief), would be getting its information about the universe from the very being that created the universe.

When placed against the trial-and-error methodology of science, I would expect the people with inside information, gleaned from the creator of the universe and all things in it, to be right more often than never.

For instance, if the Bible is the word of the Judeo-Christian god, then you'd think it could get the whole creation/evolution thing right, estimate with some precision the age of the earth, or realise the absurdity of Noah's Ark. Or even something so fundamental as creating light and separating the dark and light into day and night on the first day, but not creating the source of that light - the sun - until the fourth day, one day after he created fruit-bearing vegetation that operates on photosynthesis. Why so many mistakes if the person writing the book created the entire place and everything in it?

So yeah I am putting religion up against all scientific theories, because religion should always be right, because religion claims to get its information from the creator of everything.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:06 am

Koatanga wrote:If a belief was true, then the religion based around that belief, i.e. that which is created by the people who follow that belief (aka the "religion" because religion is the people, not the belief), would be getting its information about the universe from the very being that created the universe.

When placed against the trial-and-error methodology of science, I would expect the people with inside information, gleaned from the creator of the universe and all things in it, to be right more often than never.

For instance, if the Bible is the word of the Judeo-Christian god, then you'd think it could get the whole creation/evolution thing right, estimate with some precision the age of the earth, or realise the absurdity of Noah's Ark. Or even something so fundamental as creating light and separating the dark and light into day and night on the first day, but not creating the source of that light - the sun - until the fourth day, one day after he created fruit-bearing vegetation that operates on photosynthesis. Why so many mistakes if the person writing the book created the entire place and everything in it?

So yeah I am putting religion up against all scientific theories, because religion should always be right, because religion claims to get its information from the creator of everything.


Sounds a bit reductive to a point. I'm very middle-of-the-road, but one thing I've always been wondering is wether the Old Testament, and well, the Bible as a whole was meant to be a definitive history of everything ever, or more like illustrated guidelines.

We know that the New Testament is more of a hodge-podge combinaison of Gospels that were chosen by a process closer to a Congress vote than divine enlightment, but who's to say the Old Testament is any better? There's that old joke about Moses bringing down the Three Tablets of Law and the Twelvoops... *Crack* Hu. Ten Commandments.

To be coldly honest, I don't think many people try and defend the Bible as an history book, and trying to defend it as one says more about the person than the book.
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Beauty is Truth, QED

Postby Passionario » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:49 am

Sagara wrote:To be coldly honest, I don't think many people try and defend the Bible as an history book, and trying to defend it as one says more about the person than the book.


Wouldn't the same line of reasoning apply to those who attack the Bible as a history book?

Koatanga wrote:For instance, if the Bible is the word of the Judeo-Christian god, then you'd think it could get the whole creation/evolution thing right, estimate with some precision the age of the earth, or realise the absurdity of Noah's Ark. Or even something so fundamental as creating light and separating the dark and light into day and night on the first day, but not creating the source of that light - the sun - until the fourth day, one day after he created fruit-bearing vegetation that operates on photosynthesis. Why so many mistakes if the person writing the book created the entire place and everything in it?


If scientific articles in, for instance, Physical Review Letters, are stellar works of some of the most brilliant human minds ever, then you'd think that they would manage to get the character development right, establish a good balance of humor and mature emotional themes, or get the correct rhyming and rhythm. Or even something so fundamental as to have some interesting plot twists and immersive scene descriptions. These people are supposedly geniuses with thousands of years of theory and experimental practice behind them, and yet their writing is more boring than that of a common hack.
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Re: Beauty is Truth, QED

Postby Sagara » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:39 am

Passionario wrote:
Sagara wrote:To be coldly honest, I don't think many people try and defend the Bible as an history book, and trying to defend it as one says more about the person than the book.


Wouldn't the same line of reasoning apply to those who attack the Bible as a history book?


Obviously.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:51 am

Koatanga wrote:If a belief was true, then the religion based around that belief, i.e. that which is created by the people who follow that belief (aka the "religion" because religion is the people, not the belief), would be getting its information about the universe from the very being that created the universe.

When placed against the trial-and-error methodology of science, I would expect the people with inside information, gleaned from the creator of the universe and all things in it, to be right more often than never.

For instance, if the Bible is the word of the Judeo-Christian god, then you'd think it could get the whole creation/evolution thing right, estimate with some precision the age of the earth, or realise the absurdity of Noah's Ark. Or even something so fundamental as creating light and separating the dark and light into day and night on the first day, but not creating the source of that light - the sun - until the fourth day, one day after he created fruit-bearing vegetation that operates on photosynthesis. Why so many mistakes if the person writing the book created the entire place and everything in it?

So yeah I am putting religion up against all scientific theories, because religion should always be right, because religion claims to get its information from the creator of everything.
Nice try, but that's just a dodge of the logical fallacy, and some rather crazy logic in its own right. Good grief, you wouldn't expect to get a detailed account of evolution from a book on algebra would you? Then why would you try to get a detailed understanding of it from the bible? Do you really think that was anywhere remotely close to its intent? Do you realize how vague genesis is about all of that stuff? It's like a grownup telling a child where babies come from.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:53 am

The problem with Faith and Religion is that its very nature is dogmatic.

Tell me, what were the top 10 religious/theological breakthroughs of 2012?

Science adapts and evolves, its very nature allows it to grow, to learn from its mistakes and reach to newer truths. We've come a long way from the time there were the four humors and the earth being flat.

Yeah, there are pockets in science that refuse or are slow to change, but eventually, they fold once the evidence is there to cause a new paradigm shift.

There are talks about multiverses and string theory, of innumerable dimensions folded so tight that are invisible and out of our reach, about the fabric of reality.

There is no real room for that in dogma/religion/faith.

As for the bible... The vast majority of people don't even know how the bible came to be. To begin with, there's the Council of Nicaea, which dictated which biblical books would be considered in to form the standard bible of the roman empire. Of course, you had some crazy books that were prolly for the best to be taken from the final bible...I mean, you got the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, in which Jesus killed another boy for being a snitch!

And before that was the Septuagint, where according to folklore, 72 elders each translated the hebrew bible (Tanakh) into greek, then compared notes.

Even before that, during the development of the Tanakh there were inconsistencies.... Some books were not considered to be meaningful enough to be part of the Nevi'im (The Prophets portion of the Old Testament), some of the texts that did not make it to the Tanakh, made it to the Septuagint and to the Old Testament used by the Roman Church!

So every time I heard someone saying that the Bible is the immutable and infallible word of God, I just facepalm...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:07 am

For added bonus:
God is satisfied with his works (Gen 1:31)
God is dissatisfied with his works (Gen 6:6)

God dwells in chosen temples (2 Chron 7:12,16)
God dwells not in temples (Acts 7:48)

God dwells in light (Tim 6:16)
God dwells in darkness (1 Kings 8:12, Ps 18:11, Ps 97:2)

God is seen and heard (Ex 33:23, Ex 33:11, Gen 3:9,10, Gen 32:30, Is 6:1,Ex 24:9-11)
God is invisible and cannot be heard (John 1:18, John 5:37, Ex 33:20, 1 Tim 6:16)

God is tired and rests (Ex 31:17)
God is never tired and never rests (Is 40:28)

God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things (Prov 15:3, Ps 139:7-10, Job 34:22,21)
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all things (Gen 11:5, Gen 18:20,21, Gen 3:8)

God knows the hearts of men (Acts 1:24, Ps 139:2,3)
God tries men to find out what is in their heart (Deut 13:3, Deut 8:2, Gen 22:12)

God is all powerful (Jer 32:27, Matt 19:26)
God is not all powerful (Judg 1:19)

God is unchangeable (James 1:17, Mal 3:6, Ezek 24:14, Num 23:19)
God is changeable (Gen 6:6, Jonah 3:10, 1 Sam 2:30,31, 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6,Ex 33:1,3,17,14)

God is just and impartial (Ps 92:15, Gen 18:25, Deut 32:4, Rom 2:11, Ezek 18:25)
God is unjust and partial (Gen 9:25, Ex 20:5, Rom 9:11-13, Matt 13:12)

God is the author of evil (Lam 3:38, Jer 18:11, Is 45:7, Amos 3:6, Ezek 20:25)
God is not the author of evil (1 Cor 14:33, Deut 32:4, James 1:13)

God gives freely to those who ask (James 1:5, Luke 11:10)
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving them (John 12:40, Josh 11:20, Is 63:17)

God is to be found by those who seek him (Matt 7:8, Prov 8:17)
God is not to be found by those who seek him (Prov 1:28)

God is warlike (Ex 15:3, Is 51:15)
God is peaceful Rom (15:33, 1 Cor 14:33)

God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious (Jer 13:14, Deut 7:16, 1 Sam 15:2,3, 1 Sam 6:19)
God is kind, merciful, and good (James 5:11, Lam 3:33, 1 Chron 16:34, Ezek 18:32, Ps 145:9,1 Tim 2:4, 1 John 4:16, Ps 25:8)

God's anger is fierce and endures long (Num 32:13, Num 25:4, Jer 17:4)
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute (Ps 103:8, Ps 30:5)

God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings, sacrifices and holy days (Ex 29:36, Lev 23:27, Ex 29:18, Lev 1:9)
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings, sacrifices and holy days (Jer 7:22, Jer 6:20, Ps 50:13,4, Is 1:13,11,12)

God accepts human sacrifices (2 Sam 21:8,9,14, Gen 22:2, Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39)
God forbids human sacrifice (Deut 12:30,31)

God tempts men (Gen 22:1, 2 Sam 24:1, Jer 20:7, Matt 6:13)
God tempts no man (James 1:13)

God cannot lie (Heb 6:18)
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits to deceive (2 Thes 2:11, 1 Kings 22:23, Ezek 14:9)

Because of man's wickedness God destroys him (Gen 6:5,7)
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him (Gen 8:21)

God's attributes are revealed in his works (Rom 1:20)
God's attributes cannot be discovered (Job 11:7, Is 40:28)

There is but one God (Deut 6:4)
There is a plurality of gods (Gen 1:26, Gen 3:22, Gen 18:1-3, 1 John 5:7)

Robbery commanded (Ex 3:21,22, Ex 12:35,36)
Robbery forbidden (Lev 19:13, Ex 20:15)

Lying approved and sanctioned (Josh 2:4-6, James 2:25, Ex 1:18-20, 1 Kings 22:21,22)
Lying forbidden (Ex 20:16, Prov 12:22, Rev 21:8)

Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned (2 Kings 14:7,3)
Hatred to the Edomite forbidden (Deut 23:7)

Killing commanded (Ex 32:27)
Killing forbidden (Ex 20:13)

The blood-shedder must die (Gen 9:5,6)
The blood-shedder must not die (Gen 4:15)

The making of images forbidden (Ex 20:4)
The making of images commanded (Ex 25:18,20)

Slavery and oppression ordained (Gen 9:25, Lev 25:45,46, Joel 3:8)
Slavery and oppression forbidden (Is 58:6, Ex 22:21, Ex 21:16, Matt 23:10)

Improvidence enjoyed (Matt 6:28,31,34, Luke 6:30,35, Luke 12:3)
Improvidence condemned (1 Tim 5:8, Prov 13:22)

Anger approved (Eph 4:26)
Anger disapproved (Eccl 7:9, Prov 22:24, James 1:20)

Good works to be seen of men (Matt 5:16)
Good works not to be seen of men (Matt 6:1)

Judging of others forbidden (Matt 7:1,2)
Judging of others approved (1 Cor 6:2-4, 1 Cor 5:12)

Christ taught non-resistance (Matt 5:39, Matt 26:52)
Christ taught and practiced physical resistance (Luke 22:36, John 2:15)

Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed (Luke 12:4)
Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed (John 7:1)

Public prayer sanctioned (1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3)
Public prayer disapproved (Matt 6:5,6)

Importunity in prayer commended (Luke 18:5,7)
Importunity in prayer condemned (Matt 6:7,8)

The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned (Judg 13:5, Num 6:5)
The wearing of long hair by men condemned (1 Cor 11:14)

Circumcision instituted (Gen 17:10)
Circumcision condemned (Gal 5:2)

The Sabbath instituted (Ex 20:8)
The Sabbath repudiated (Is 1:13, Rom 14:5, Col 2:16)

The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day (Ex 20:11
The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites out of Egypt (Deut 5:15)

No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death (Ex 31:15, Num 15:32,36)
Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples inthe same (John 5:16, Matt 12:1-3,5)

Baptism commanded (Matt 28:19)
Baptism not commanded (1 Cor 1:17,14)

Every kind of animal allowed for food (Gen 9:3, 1 Cor 10:25, Rom 14:14)
Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food (Deut 14:7,8)

Taking of oaths sanctioned (Num 30:2, Gen 21:23-24,31, Gen 31:53, Heb 6:13)
Taking of oaths forbidden (Matt 5:34)

Marriage approved (Gen 2:18, Gen 1:28, Matt 19:5, Heb 13:4)
Marriage disapproved (1 Cor 7:1, 1 Cor 7:7,8)

Freedom of divorce permitted (Deut 24:1, Deut 21:10,11,14)
Divorce restricted (Matt 5:32)

Adultery forbidden (Ex 20:14, Heb 13:4)
Adultery allowed (Num 31:18, Hos 1:2; 2:1-3)

Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced (Deut 27:22, Lev 20:17)
Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union (Gen 20:11,12, Gen 17:16)

A man may marry his brother's widow (Deut 25:5
A man may not marry his brother's widow (Lev 20:21)

Hatred to kindred enjoined (Luke 14:26)
Hatred to kindred condemned (Eph 6:2, Eph 5:25,29)

Intoxicating beverages recommended (Prov 31:6,7, 1 Tim 5:23, Ps 104:15)
Intoxicating beverages discountenanced (Prov 20:1, Prov 23:31,32)

It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers and punish evil doers only (Rom 13:1-3,6)
It is not our duty to obey rulers, who sometimes punish the good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor (Ex 1:17,20, Dan 3:16,18, Dan 6:9,7,10, Acts 4:26,27,Mark 12:38,39,40, Luke 23:11,24,33,35)

Women's rights denied (Gen 3:16, 1 Tim 2:12, 1 Cor 14:34, 1 Pet 3:6)
Women's rights affirmed (Judg 4:4,14,15, Judg 5:7, Acts 2:18, Acts 21:9)

Obedience to masters enjoined (Col 3:22,23, 1 Pet 2:18)
Obedience due to God only (Matt 4:10, 1 Cor 7:23, Matt 23:10)

There is an unpardonable sin (Mark 3:29)
There is not unpardonable sin (Acts 13:39)

Man was created after the other animals (Gen 1:25,26,27)
Man was created before the other animals (Gen 2:18,19)

Seed time and harvest were never to cease (Gen 8:22)
Seed time and harvest did cease for seven years (Gen 41:54,56, Gen 45:6)

God hardened Pharaoh's heart (Ex 4:21, Ed 9:12)
Pharaoh hardened his own heart (Ex 8:15)

All the cattle and horses in Egypt died (Ex 9:3,6, 14:9)
All the horses of Egypt did not die (Ex 14:9)

Moses feared Pharaoh (Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19)
Moses did not fear Pharaoh (Heb 11:27)

There died of the plague twenty-four thousand
There died of the plague but twenty-three thousand (1 Cor 10:8)

John the Baptist was Elias (Matt 11:14
John the Baptist was not Elias (John 1:21)

The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob (Matt 1:16)
The father of Mary's husband was Heli (Luke 3:23)

The father of Salah was Arphaxad (Gen 11:12)
The father of Salah was Cainan (Luke 3:35,36)

There were fourteen generations from Abraham to David (Matt 1:17)
There were but thirteen generations from Abraham to David (Matt 1:2-6)

There were fourteen generations from the Babylonian captivity to Christ (Matt 1:17)
There were but thirteen generations from the Babyloniancaptivity to Christ (Matt 1:12-16)

The infant Christ was taken into Egypt (Matt 2:14,15,19,21,23)
The infant Christ was not taken into Egypt (Luke 2:22, 39)

Christ was tempted in the wilderness (Mark 1:12,13)
Christ was not tempted in the wilderness (John 2:1,2)

Christ preached his first sermon on the mount (Matt 5:1,2)
Christ preached his first sermon on the plain (Luke 6:17,20)

John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee (Mark 1:14)
John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee (John 1:43, John 3:22-24)

Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with a staff and sandals (Mark 6:8,9)
Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with neither staffs nor sandals (Matt 10:9,10)

A woman of Canaan besought Jesus (Matt 15:22)
It was a Greek woman who besought Him (Mark 7:26)

Two blind men besought Jesus (Matt 20:30)
Only one blind man besought Him (Luke 18:35,38)

Christ was crucified at the third hour (Mark 15:25)
Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour (John 19:14,15)

The two thieves reviled Christ (Matt 27:44, Mark 15:32)
Only one of the thieves reviled Christ (Luke 23:39,40)

Satan entered into Judas while at supper (John 13:27)
Satan entered into him before the supper (Luke 22:3,4,7)

Judas committed suicide by hanging (Matt 27:5)
Judas did not hang himself, but died another way (Acts 1:18)

The potter's field was purchased by Judas (Acts 1:18)
The potter's field was purchased by the Chief Priests (Matt 27:6,7)

There was but one woman who came to the sepulchre (John 20:1)
There were two women who came to the sepulchre (Matt 28:1)
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Some of the contradictions can be dismissed seeing how you got old testament and new testament texts contradicting each other. But other contradictions come from texts from supposedly the same time period, or even the same text!

I remember Penn Jillete arguing about people not agreeing on the way Elvis Presley liked his fried chicken! There are books solely dedicated to Elvis' favorite food and how they're supposed to be prepared but the recipes vary from book to book... This was about what... 60 years ago? 60 years ago, in a place where you could say was highly civilized (The United States), in a time where most people knew how to read and write, in a time where it is easier to spread the word around (newspapers, radio and tv) and people cannot agree on whether Elvis Presley liked his fried chicken seasoned with PAPRIKA!!!!
Last edited by Klaudandus on Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Passionario » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:13 am

I'd like to reiterate my earlier point about stupidity being the root of the problem here. Specifically, I find unthinking acceptance of any dogma (political, scientific, religious or otherwise) without even an attempt at critical evaluation to be both stupid and wrong.

All known books were written by humans, and humans are inherently limited and fallible. Even if I make an honest attempt to translate my mystic experience or my findings about the world into a form comprehensible to other people by writing a sacred text or a scientific monograph, something will inevitably get lost in translation (the map is not the territory). I can easily make mistakes, draw erroneous conclusions, or contaminate the message with my subjective prejudices and the cultural baggage of my time. And that's the best case scenario - if my intentions are less than perfectly honest and include an agenda of some sort, things get much worse.

Blindly accepting *any* book as literal and ultimate truth - be it the Bible, Das Kapital, Atlas Shrugged, On the Origin of Species or History Textbook for 6th Grade - is, in my eyes, a recipe for disaster.

On other hand, dismissing a book out of hand because it fails to be the aforementioned literal/ultimate truth is hardly smart, either. Read it, think about it and take everything with a grain of salt - that's the way to go.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:18 am

Passionario wrote:On other hand, dismissing a book out of hand because it fails to be the aforementioned literal/ultimate truth is hardly smart, either. Read it, think about it and take everything with a grain of salt - that's the way to go.


That's the funny part, I'm pretty well read in the bible... Being that I was being groomed to join a seminar and my uncle started me on that as a kid...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:21 am

Please, please, please, don't make religion or faith out to be fallacious based purely on 1 canonical book, which has a history of being translated in very different ways.
Also, context is king, and remember that unlike scientific papers, canonical books are not listings of facts, they are a guide to how to live according to that faiths writers of the time it was written - not all of which has naything to do with religion, but has to do with culture, which evolves;
1. Corinthians 11:5-6 (King James version)
But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

Clearly this has nothing to do with modern culture, and is not adhered to by a clear majority of christians, that is not proof of a fallacy of either the bible, the christians, or the faith, merely proof that we live in a different world around 2000 years later.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:27 am

Passionario wrote:I'd like to reiterate my earlier point about stupidity being the root of the problem here. Specifically, I find unthinking acceptance of any dogma (political, scientific, religious or otherwise) without even an attempt at critical evaluation to be both stupid and wrong.


Enigma will take you where Dogma cannot. Repeat and apply ad nauseam.

Passionario wrote:All known books were written by humans, and humans are inherently limited and fallible. Even if I make an honest attempt to translate my mystic experience or my findings about the world into a form comprehensible to other people by writing a sacred text or a scientific monograph, something will inevitably get lost in translation (the map is not the territory). I can easily make mistakes, draw erroneous conclusions, or contaminate the message with my subjective prejudices and the cultural baggage of my time. And that's the best case scenario - if my intentions are less than perfectly honest and include an agenda of some sort, things get much worse.

Blindly accepting *any* book as literal and ultimate truth - be it the Bible, Das Kapital, Atlas Shrugged, On the Origin of Species or History Textbook for 6th Grade - is, in my eyes, a recipe for disaster.

On other hand, dismissing a book out of hand because it fails to be the aforementioned literal/ultimate truth is hardly smart, either. Read it, think about it and take everything with a grain of salt - that's the way to go.


Interestingly, this is the sum total of the scientific method: observe, analyse, theorize, test, report. Not that it implies that "followers of Science" are innately better - because like any faithful, they are quite adept at failing at their own faith.

Now, is it me, or is everyone at least agreeing on the "we don't know, and whatever we believe is based on either guesswork, Occam's Razor or wishful thinking"?
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