Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:24 am

I'm not really against religion because it "oppresses science", because that's nothing close to a universal truth. My opposition centers around two things:

- The logic doesn't hold up. Many people feel that there is something larger in the universe, a deeper meaning, a mystical element to life. I don't think they're stupid or ignorant when they believe that, many of them are very smart people. It's just that I don't feel anything like that, and that there's not much else religion has going for it these days. (Well, I do feel it sometimes. But I disregard it because:) The feelings of mystery and greatness and such are better explained, in my opinion, by how the human brain works, not that these feelings have to correspond to something that's real outside our own minds. The brain is a master of tricking itself. But that's my opinion. Plenty of people disagree, and I respect that.

- The focus on revelation and scripture as sources of knowledge. It's just a bad way to gather knowledge about the universe, again IMO. Revelation by it's nature is not something that can be repeated, checked or controlled, you just have to take the word of the person claiming it. See above why I think people that have revelations can be totally honest and still totally wrong. Scripture is the worst kind of appeal to authority. "This is the truth because it is written" leads to stagnation and outright untruths. That's not limited to religious texts, though. Aristoteles had a comparable stature in early medieval science.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:35 am

Apart from doing the courtesy of letting you know I'm stepping out of the discussion for a few days (I'm having some irritability and anoyance, and I don't want that to influence what I say or write), I just want to remind the discusser that we do not have "3 religions" with subbranches. There are several other theistic systems than the judao-christian 3 variations.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Passionario » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:47 am

Paxen wrote:The feelings of mystery and greatness and such are better explained, in my opinion, by how the human brain works, not that these feelings have to correspond to something that's real outside our own minds. The brain is a master of tricking itself.


Personally, I would love to have a good and proper scientific explanation for my moment of divine revelation. The closest I've found is Wilson/Leary's Eight-Circuit Model of Consciousness, which would classify it as 'spontaneous positive imprinting of neurosomatic and quantum non-local brain circuits' (which, admittedly, doesn't roll off the tongue as easily as "I saw and felt the presence of God throughout the multiverse").
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:06 am

I just find God to be as fallible as Joe Pesci when it comes to answering prayers.

And I'll leave it at that.

No wait... Actually, my family became a clusterfuck once my zeyde died... my grandma became a full blown crazy SBC lady... so did several of my relatives, with my uncle becoming a SBC pastor that preaches that we should blow Iran in the name of Jesus.

But more importantly, my mom and I lived under their thumb for several years. My mom being the youngest of her siblings, and I being the youngest of the cousins... and born to a catholic father... making things worse, my grandma eventually forced my mom into the divorce.

My mom and I took a bunch of abuse from them... all in the name of Jesus...

According to my uncle, the best way for me to make up for the fact that I was born to a catholic dad was to become a pastor myself and i was being groomed to join a seminar since I was a kid...

Luckily, my mom and I pretty much fled the family... after several years of abuse...

So, forgive me if I have something against religion... and I find more comfort in the coldness of science.

It's been almost 20 years since that happened and I still find it hard to talk about it...


The closest thing I've seen to divine intervention in my life was the 2004 Red Sox winning the world series...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:21 am

Although, in pure honesty, the blame lays more in the human being wielding the religion than the faith itself (I wouldn't even use the word "religion" as the hand of Man is found everywhere on it).

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:42 am

True. But still... It's kinda like Seta Soujiro asking Kenshin where he was when he needed the help...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Dantriges » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:50 am

What´s SBC and zeyde?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:58 am

southern baptist church, zeyde is yiddish for grandpa -- my grandpa was a jewish apostate. he was very progressive for being a jewish, and would not tell anyone what they should believe in, unfortunately, once he died... things became crazy in the religious dept.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:51 am

Sagara wrote:Although, in pure honesty, the blame lays more in the human being wielding the religion than the faith itself (I wouldn't even use the word "religion" as the hand of Man is found everywhere on it).

Exactly! Religion and science are not necessarily mutually exclusive things.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Torquemada » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:14 am

They are not exclusive in much the same way that an orgy and a chainsaw are not mutually exclusive; that is, that they have nothing to do with each other and attempts to combine them will probably end up in tragedy, bloodshed, or a trainwreck that is brilliant to watch as long as you aren't a part of it.

That said, many notable religious people have furthered human understanding in myriad ways either by simply trying to understand and question, or to understand their faith. I have yet to see a single person in this threat as it has been hijacked by religion (And I am guilty as anyone in the last 4 or so pages) fail to note that. My major issue, and I imagine that of others as well is when people assume conclusions and attempt to work backwards, such as using the Bible as proof of the Great Flood then looking for Noah's Ark.

One of the reasons I find myself drawn to science personally is because I try to hold myself open to being swayed by evidence that does not support my paradigm, whether it be in matters of the natural world, politics, religion, etc. I realized that indeed along with stupidity/ignorance, extremism as a branch of that stupidity has been a serious issue at hand. I can accept and respect the opinions of a pro-lifer, but not one who bombs abortion clinics. I can appreciate the religious beliefs of a Muslim, but not a jihadist who attacks innocents. The same goes whether it's the Animal Liberation Front, the IRA, Hamas, Jaysh al-Mahdi, or a militia in the US. I'm even getting tired of the extremist rhetoric from both sides in the political discourse today. I'm not saying everyone should be a moderate, but it's definitely past time to moderate the tone of the discussion.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:46 am

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:50 am

Torquemada wrote:They are not exclusive in much the same way that an orgy and a chainsaw are not mutually exclusive; that is, that they have nothing to do with each other and attempts to combine them will probably end up in tragedy, bloodshed, or a trainwreck that is brilliant to watch as long as you aren't a part of it.


They do have some overlap, they're all methods for discovering how the world works.

For me, the last half-millennia or so has shown that the scientific method is vastly superior for this purpose. A lot of people still seek answers outside what science can provide, and I don't really mind that. I find "we don't currently know" to be a perfectly acceptable answer, but many people don't, and so seek their answers in religion (which provides them). I got no problem with that.

I do think that anybody who accepts religious answers over scientific answers where science does have an answer and they're in direct conflict is a moron. (Creationists and such.)

Passonario, it's only a start, but Apophenia, the ability of the human brain to see patterns in random data, can go some ways towards explaining mystical experiences.

I don't write all this to convince people I'm right (well, except for convincing Nooska that people who self-identify as atheists are in fact atheists, even if they're agnostics too!). Just trying to present my views, and my reasons for holding them, so as to maybe give a little insight into atheism. (I really hate it when people try to claim that atheism is fundamentally logically unsound.)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Dantriges » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:44 am

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/8-million-a-year-thats-modest-says-rbs-chief-8490841.html

This guy should EABODs and DIAF


Yeah seems some people totally lost touch with reality. 8,3 million including a bonus in a year where he screwed up and he calls it low?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:22 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
Sagara wrote:Although, in pure honesty, the blame lays more in the human being wielding the religion than the faith itself (I wouldn't even use the word "religion" as the hand of Man is found everywhere on it).

Exactly! Religion and science are not necessarily mutually exclusive things.

They sure seem to be when it comes to Texas textbooks. I cringe to think of children growing up thinking creationism and evolution are equally valid, and that the scientific use of the term "theory" equates to the colloquial use synonymous with "hunch".

But when it comes to religion and the "hand of man" showing up in it, well, it seems to me that everything that is unprovable and pristine is what god did, and everything that gets disproven or abused is all man's fault. Goalposts naturally shift as scientific discoveries prove more of the previously unprovable, such that the newly disproved things become man's hand and not god's hand.

I think it's all "man's hand", because I believe man invented the concept of god to explain that which man was unable to explain.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:30 pm

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/8-million-a-year-thats-modest-says-rbs-chief-8490841.html

This guy should EABODs and DIAF


Meh, par for the course. Overpaid executives think they've earned every cent, just because all the rest of the executives are also vastly overpaid.

It doesn't help that execs are popular on the boards of other companies, which means they get to set each others salaries.
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