Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:14 pm

So... the girl that pointed a hello kitty bubble gun at someone got suspended but the kids that beat up another kid into a comma don't get charged for assault? (though technically, the comma was medically induced to control the swelling)
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?secti ... id=8983472

Heck, for that matter, the kids the beat the crap of the poor comatose kid only got a two day suspension.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:59 pm

Skye1013 wrote:
Shoju wrote:Personally, if we have to come to a point where there is a sales tax levied on the internet, it needs to be a flat rate, charged on all online transactions. Not based on state of purchase or shipment. The problem that this will run into, is that it could negatively impact "brick and mortar" shops in states where Sales Tax is higher than the "Net Tax".

Not sure how a fixed tax would negatively impact "brick and mortar" shops... since having no tax whatsoever (in a lot of cases) doesn't seem to be impacting them all that much.


Because if you move to a Fixed "Net Tax" that is countrywide, there will be places where it is lower than the through the door sales tax. Unless you do a "Pay your normal sales tax in state, and all out of state is charged a "Net Tax".

Shoju wrote:On another note, Jim Wright, over at Stonekettle Station Dropped a new blog last night, about the net, and social media. It's well worth the read.

I read that today at work, and felt it was quite enjoyable. I especially got a kick out of the Applebees facebook thing... I mean seriously Applebees... take your licks and move on.[/quote]

He is currently my favorite commentary.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:16 pm

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/02/08/ac ... torically/

I am thinking the ACLU is going about it the wrong way.

They should sue to have other deities have their own portraits on that wall as well!

That way, the school would rather just take the Jesus portrait down that having it share a wall with the likes of Buddha, Shiva, Moses, John Smith, et al.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:54 pm

im fine with religious displays as long as they are open to ALL religions
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:05 pm

bldavis wrote:im fine with religious displays as long as they are open to ALL religions


Same.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:08 pm

I dunno, isn't that biased against non-religion? ;)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:15 pm

have an empty frame to represent the lack of diety for those that are agnostic/atheist...

and note this is coming form an agnoostic
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Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
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Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:22 pm

Well... you can either choose to put a pic of Sagan, Darwin, Hitchens or Dawkins for non-believers; well either that or the Flying Spaghetti Monster
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:56 am

Republic Icon for the Jedi among us?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:28 am

I would assume that the truly atheist would not need any picture as they would "know" that the other pictures are already "false".
A big questionmark in a frame for agnostics though.

Edit:
Also, new Maintankadin Crowd Chart - updated with Torq and Kysens number 2 gos, and removed the original goes (either the moved politically, or they answered more "correctly" on the seond go due to having some foreknowledge of the questions).
Last edited by Nooska on Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:22 am

Nooska wrote:I would assume that the truly atheist would not need any picture as they would "know" that the other pictures are already "false".
A big questionmark in a frame for agnostics though.

The key thing is this is about influence on the youth, who may not have fully formed their opinions yet. By acknowledging one religion, you're giving it an implicit legitimacy. By acknowledging all religions, you're giving religion an implicit legitimacy.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Dantriges » Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:16 am

Could go in both ways. The young people could embrace the faith or reject it, depending on their own personality. One picture doesn´t change much or even crosses on every wall. Ok we don´t have (many) fundamentalists trying to make science classes teach creationism and history into bible study. AFAIK adolescents/kids don´t turn to a specific religion because of symbols hanging on walls. you turn to a belief system because it fills a specific need.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:38 pm

Economic Left/Right: -3.25
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.82
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:58 am

Thing is, I encounter a LOT of people claiming to be atheist, while truly being agnostic - and others that are religious about atheism and need to preach it (that wouldn't be atheism really)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:16 am

Nooska wrote:Thing is, I encounter a LOT of people claiming to be atheist, while truly being agnostic - and others that are religious about atheism and need to preach it (that wouldn't be atheism really)


That's a matter of definition. Agnostic is originally a very mystical philosophy that says that we cannot know anything about God. I think most people that self-identify as "agnostic" are more of the "I don't know, and maybe I don't care" variety, which I think is properly a type of atheism. Atheist just means a person that doesn't believe in god, which covers a wide range of people, from the "agnostics" to more hard line atheists who claim that all religions are unsupported by evidence, so it's sheer idiocy to believe in them.

I don't mind people calling hard-liner atheists obnoxious or pompous, but it always bugs me when they're called religious. Nobody takes the non-existence of gods as an article of faith. Rather, they find that they can find no evidence for gods or reason to believe there is one, and therefore rejects it until better evidence is presented.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:57 pm

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrar ... epression/

Wow, I wasn't aware that Obama could travel back in time to implement Obamanomics way before he took office!

So, according to Freepers/WND/RedState/FoxNews -- he now has a time machine, a weather machine, a special ops unit made of thespians (insert no one died at sandy hook conspiracy theory) and drones to kill people here in the US, ok... there might be some truth to the last one.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Torquemada » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:02 pm

Uhm, the article pretty clearly states that Obama had the reins on the economy for four years, but that the Dems had Congress in 2008, so the 5 years goes back to include the last of Dubya's term. The article also puts blame on Bush's monetary policy for starting/exacerbating the problem. The key point about Obama is that his policies are reportedly the opposite of Reaganomics, thus they have failed. I don't know that I agree with that point either. Certainly the economy is not in as good a shape as is advertised, the unemployment numbers being cooked by the participation rate to keep the total around 8%.

The more I look back at the 1980s, the more I start to be convinced that it was deficit spending AND tax cuts that simultaneously grew the economy, albeit as a process that could not be continued indefinitely despite everyone's attempts to do so since. We went from gold bubble to Tokyo stock market bubble to tech industry bubble to housing bubble, with speculators making money early on but as everyone tried to get in on the "sweet deals," the bubble burst. The fact that the federal government helped foster the housing bubble through forcing Fanny and Freddie to take bad loans rather angers me to this day.

Is everything Obama's fault? No, and as much vitriol is spewed at Obama in this piece, even the author admits that. But he certainly attributes current policy to making the situation worse, which I do agree with. The part of the article I'm most offended by, however, is the misattribution the second part of that quote to Churchill rather than to William F. Buckley.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Torquemada » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:07 pm

Paxen wrote:That's a matter of definition. Agnostic is originally a very mystical philosophy that says that we cannot know anything about God. I think most people that self-identify as "agnostic" are more of the "I don't know, and maybe I don't care" variety, which I think is properly a type of atheism. Atheist just means a person that doesn't believe in god, which covers a wide range of people, from the "agnostics" to more hard line atheists who claim that all religions are unsupported by evidence, so it's sheer idiocy to believe in them.

I don't mind people calling hard-liner atheists obnoxious or pompous, but it always bugs me when they're called religious. Nobody takes the non-existence of gods as an article of faith. Rather, they find that they can find no evidence for gods or reason to believe there is one, and therefore rejects it until better evidence is presented.


Truth. The major issue with strong atheism are the rather more fervent folks who say they can "prove" through lack of evidence that there is a God, which gives tons of fodder for evangelicals to call them on their fallacies even as they hide behind their own. I personally hold to the belief that we can't know but that if there is a creator, it is an impersonal one more akin to the divine watchmaker of Deism. I don't believe we can know, or ever will know for certain. That doesn't mean that I know this for fact, and giving compelling evidence backed by reason I'd be willing to reevaluate my beliefs. But then, I'm equally inclined to change alter my political paradigm when presented the same kind of rational argument, which is part of how I shifted from very hard right to where I am now.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:27 pm

Torquemada wrote:Uhm, the article pretty clearly states that Obama had the reins on the economy for four years, but that the Dems had Congress in 2008, so the 5 years goes back to include the last of Dubya's term. The article also puts blame on Bush's monetary policy for starting/exacerbating the problem. The key point about Obama is that his policies are reportedly the opposite of Reaganomics, thus they have failed. I don't know that I agree with that point either. Certainly the economy is not in as good a shape as is advertised, the unemployment numbers being cooked by the participation rate to keep the total around 8%.

The more I look back at the 1980s, the more I start to be convinced that it was deficit spending AND tax cuts that simultaneously grew the economy, albeit as a process that could not be continued indefinitely despite everyone's attempts to do so since. We went from gold bubble to Tokyo stock market bubble to tech industry bubble to housing bubble, with speculators making money early on but as everyone tried to get in on the "sweet deals," the bubble burst. The fact that the federal government helped foster the housing bubble through forcing Fanny and Freddie to take bad loans rather angers me to this day.

Is everything Obama's fault? No, and as much vitriol is spewed at Obama in this piece, even the author admits that. But he certainly attributes current policy to making the situation worse, which I do agree with. The part of the article I'm most offended by, however, is the misattribution the second part of that quote to Churchill rather than to William F. Buckley.


In the current state of affairs, the fundamental principles of trickle-down economics would fail in the US because there are more attractive investment opportunities overseas.

That wasn't the case in the 1980s with automation and robotics making significant advances in manufacturing processes and the emergence of the desktop/personal computer as a concept. I think the technological growth of the 80's is not given anywhere near enough credit for the stimulation of the economy.

It annoys me how politicians take credit for completely unrelated events - like Clinton's economic boom due to the .com explosion and emergence of the internet - and subsequently use them to prove their theory worked and therefore is The Answer to current issues.

The issues facing the US are not so simple that a tax cut makes them go away. Military spending is crippling the economy without people willing to make sacrifices to pay for military action. People keep on spending as if they don't have to pay for multiple wars, and are surprised when buried by credit.

When I moved to New Zealand 10 years ago, the NZ dollar bought 42 US cents. As I look at it now, the exchange rate is .835 US cents to 1 NZ dollar. That's double, near as makes no difference. Part of that is the strength of the NZ economy, but a big part of that is also the devaluation of the dollar. Yet people in the US do not shop for domestic products or make any attempt to keep the wealth in the US. Rather, production is outsourced to cheap labour in foreign countries, and the drain on the US economy is worsened.

I read about a wrench a fellow in the midwest developed and marketed to Sears - it was one of their hottest selling items. Suddenly, a few months before Christmas, they called and cancelled all their orders, effectively ending the jobs of the people making the wrenches. Sears got them made in China at a cheaper cost per unit - even though they had no problems selling them at the higher price of the domestic product.

The deficit is, largely thanks to the deficit spending policies of the Regan era, largely ignored. It's Someone Else's Problem. It's treated like an unlimited credit line that will never come due. Want to fund a war? No problem - put it on the deficit. Medicine for all? No problem - charge it! It's like the US is a kid with his first credit card, not realising the money needs to be paid back somehow.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Mon Feb 11, 2013 1:27 am

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2013/02/07/the-worst-five-years-since-the-great-depression/


That article is so full of lies and stupidity that it almost makes my head explode. He completely ignores that we had that little financial crisis that hit in 2008. That was not created by any policies enacted in 2008, it takes longer to build up than that. And he completely ignores the cyclical nature of economics, good times are always followed by bad times, and the bad times are worse if you overspend in good times. Who had the government in the good times? Not Obama.

Obama took over at the start of a recession. Of course his pure numbers look awful.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Passionario » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:39 am

Paxen wrote:Obama took over at the start of a recession. Of course his pure numbers look awful.


Excuses, excuses. Next you'll be telling us that he was on interrupt/dispel/kiting duty. :P
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:43 am

Nah, he just tank swapped from Bush, and the healers had gone OoM because how shitty he was, trying to grab all the adds everywhere in the room.
SO when people started going down left and right, everyone blamed the current tank.

WoW, like Guile's theme, goes with EVERYTHING.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:02 am

Sagara wrote:Nah, he just tank swapped from Bush, and the healers had gone OoM because how shitty he was, trying to grab all the adds everywhere in the room.
SO when people started going down left and right, everyone blamed the current tank.


But...Obama is a priest!

I'm not saying everything is Bush's fault and the democrats are blameless (far from it), but attacking Obama based on how shitty the mess he inherited is is taking it to new levels of stupidity and/or dishonesty.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:22 am

Right. But the analogy was totally worth it :-p
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:57 am

On the atheistist that are religious about their atheism (being religious has nothing to do with believing in God), they fail on one very important point they as atheists should be even more aware of than religious people;
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

And they are obnoxious when they try to convert theists to their faith that ther is no G/god(s).

Also, atheist, is someone who doesn't believe in (a) G/god(s) (a-theist, non-godbeliever).

Also, I use agnostic by the termdefinition, rather than by the usage of the medieval "cult".
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