Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Election 2012

Postby Arnock » Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:50 pm

The problem is, congressional elections have far less visibility than presidential, and consequently even less voter turnout. So it would probably be even harder to gain a lot of momentum behind a third party/independent candidate.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:05 pm

Makes me wonder how we went from the original parties to the current ones... are they the same parties with different names?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_po ... al_parties

It's not like there has been a lack of other options.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Koatanga » Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:51 pm

Arnock wrote:The problem is, congressional elections have far less visibility than presidential, and consequently even less voter turnout. So it would probably be even harder to gain a lot of momentum behind a third party/independent candidate.

I agree.

But the point is that by making a statement with your Presidential vote, you are making a statement in the least effective place. Republican and Democrat Congressmen must just laugh at these "statements", knowing that their two parties' hold on the real power base isn't even being challenged. You might as well protest Taco Bell by picketing outside of a Burger King.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:18 pm

The tea party, while not really a traditional third party did have a noticeable impact, and they targeted a few republicans too. At the local level, the smaller turnouts really can help the third party candidates. So I'd agree that that seems like the best option to build a foundation.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fivelives » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:01 am

The problem with third parties is that they simply don't get any media coverage, unless they're grossly, disgustingly rich. Or, they'll get bad media coverage, which in a presidential election is worse than no media at all.

Easy solution would be to hold debates asynchronously over the internet and let ALL of the candidates participate. Make the change now, or at least Soon™, so that by the time every household in the US has internet that can handle something like Youtube it would be the new status quo.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Tev » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:07 am

Everyone vote for Invisusira of the Nyan Cat party.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Melathys » Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:38 pm

I think an American Idol style presidential election could work, lol. probably be better than the way it is currently......
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fivelives » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:06 pm

Melathys wrote:I think an American Idol style presidential election could work, lol. probably be better than the way it is currently......


More votes are cast for American Idol over the course of a season than any presidential election in history. In 2008, there were 122.4 million votes cast for president. American Idol tallied up 97.5 million votes on the finale alone. And the '08 elections had the highest turnout in the history of the US.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fetzie » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:12 pm

How many are repeat voters though? Some people love giving Simon Cowell money and vote more than once per episode.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fivelives » Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:49 pm

I don't know. I'm pretty sure they never release their raw vote data, but it's not really a subject that I follow religiously.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:12 pm

Well repeat voters plus a bunch of voters who aren't eligible to vote for president because of their age.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby firstamendme » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:35 pm

There are youtube videos of teenage girls literally spam voting on their cell phones for the duration of the show. The comparison is hardly valid.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Melathys » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:35 pm

lol. I think everyone is taking the idea a bit too literally. I said style, not "make it exactly the same".

That said, it would be an interesting thing for a third party to do to pick a candidate. Might finally give a third party the exposure needed to compete with the big two.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Koatanga » Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:08 pm

You've hit on a great new idea for a reality TV show. Have a bunch of people audition to be an independent Presidential candidate, then each week the finalists tackle a different issue. Americans vote for their favourite, Idol-style. By the end of the show, the remaining candidate should have received enough exposure to make a credible run at the Presidency.

On the other hand, it'll probably be like Idol - the person who wins rarely has much of a musical career.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fetzie » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:28 am

They usually get a first album at the top of the charts though.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby KysenMurrin » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:59 am

Yeah, but they get screwed by the record contract they're locked into when they win. There are often successful runners-up because they get a chance to actually have some control of their career. You wouldn't have that aspect with a presidential candidate thing.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Skye1013 » Sun Jun 10, 2012 6:08 pm

You'd have to have something in the show to make people actually want to watch it though... presidential debates isn't really my idea of a good time. And a lot of the stuff people do on reality tv to make it "interesting" would make the candidate questionable as a good potential president...
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Hokahey » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:30 am

Amirya wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:The more people that "waste" their vote on someone else, the more likely it is that others will see the system is broken, or heck, might even take a chance the next election because the number is growing, and "this year just might be the year..."

For anyone that doesn't even take the time for a write in vote (even if it's a made up person/creature/place/whatever), I don't think they really have much room to complain about the system.

If it helps, while I refuse to vote, I don't complain about it, I just have no faith that it even works.


This.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fivelives » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:41 am

Hokahey wrote:
Amirya wrote:
Skye1013 wrote:The more people that "waste" their vote on someone else, the more likely it is that others will see the system is broken, or heck, might even take a chance the next election because the number is growing, and "this year just might be the year..."

For anyone that doesn't even take the time for a write in vote (even if it's a made up person/creature/place/whatever), I don't think they really have much room to complain about the system.

If it helps, while I refuse to vote, I don't complain about it, I just have no faith that it even works.


This.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxsQ7jJJcEA

George Carlin wrote:I don't vote. Two reasons. First of all it's meaningless; this country was bought and sold a long time ago. The shit they shovel around every 4 years *pfff* doesn't mean a fucking thing.

Secondly, I believe if you vote, you have no right to complain. People like to twist that around – they say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain', but where's the logic in that? If you vote and you elect dishonest, incompetent people into office who screw everything up, you are responsible for what they have done. You caused the problem; you voted them in; you have no right to complain.

I, on the other hand, who did not vote, who in fact did not even leave the house on election day, am in no way responsible for what these people have done and have every right to complain about the mess you created that I had nothing to do with.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:18 am

As much as I love George Carlin's comedy, the logic in that particular quip is pretty poor. It's a comedy routine after all.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby KysenMurrin » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:43 am

Yeah, you could argue not voting means you can criticise the people who did vote, but it doesn't hold water for criticising the person who wins.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fivelives » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:27 am

If you think about it, you really don't have a right to complain if you vote. Either

A) you voted in an incompetent boob and thus have no right to complain as it's your fault,

or

B) you voted for "the other guy" - in which case you also have no right to complain, as you played the game and lost fair and square.

But since when has "having a right" mattered when people want to complain, anyway?

George Carlin's logic isn't often at fault. Sure, he relied a lot on hyperbole - as almost all comedians do - but that doesn't mean he wasn't right more often than not.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby theckhd » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:53 pm

Fivelives wrote:If you think about it, you really don't have a right to complain if you vote. Either

A) you voted in an incompetent boob and thus have no right to complain as it's your fault,

or

B) you voted for "the other guy" - in which case you also have no right to complain, as you played the game and lost fair and square.

But since when has "having a right" mattered when people want to complain, anyway?

George Carlin's logic isn't often at fault. Sure, he relied a lot on hyperbole - as almost all comedians do - but that doesn't mean he wasn't right more often than not.


I hate this argument, because it's about the dumbest thing that I've ever heard. One can vote for someone without agreeing with all of their stances, or vote against someone despite agreeing with them on certain points. You can still be pissed off when they do something stupid. They're not mutually exclusive positions. Trying to paint it as such is more of the stupid fatalistic posturing that people use to justify it as "not their problem" when they want to feel smug, smart, and holier-than-thou, while at the same time not being smart enough to see that they're part of the problem.

You want to demonstrate your disillusionment with politics? Take the 15 minutes it takes to go and vote for a third-party candidate, even if they have no chance of winning. If even half of the 40% of voters that decide not to vote showed up and voted for a third party candidate - any third party candidate - it would send a distinct message to the "only" two options. Hell, 40% of all voters is enough to elect a third party candidate.

Sitting on your ass and not voting is the equivalent of re-posting shit on facebook to "show your support." It's the juvenile, idiotic, lazy way to pretend you're involved without having to actually do anything useful or meaningful.

/rant off
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Melathys » Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:27 pm

its the people who "protest" by not voting that have put this nation in the mess that its in.
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Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:31 pm

theckhd wrote:I hate this argument, because it's about the dumbest thing that I've ever heard.
That about sums it up.
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