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Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:24 pm

"When it comes to the issue of background checks, let’s be honest – background checks will never be 'universal' – because criminals will never submit to them"
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Is it just me or does that sound more like "Because is not 100% effective, its not worth implementing"?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:27 pm

isnt the point to limit the sale of guns to the criminals?
so if they dont submit to it, they dont get a gun?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:39 pm

The problem with that is I, as a law abiding gun owning citizen, am approached by you, the violent criminal psychopath, because you want to purchase this particular weapon from me in a private sale. It is no different than if you also wanted to purchase my (non-existent) 2002 Honda Accord.

I don't have to do a credit check to sell you my car; I don't have to do a background check to sell you my gun. And frankly, I don't see how the government could make that mandatory for private parties - someone somewhere will scream about invasion of privacy and other such.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:00 pm

Amirya wrote:The problem with that is I, as a law abiding gun owning citizen, am approached by you, the violent criminal psychopath, because you want to purchase this particular weapon from me in a private sale. It is no different than if you also wanted to purchase my (non-existent) 2002 Honda Accord.

I don't have to do a credit check to sell you my car; I don't have to do a background check to sell you my gun. And frankly, I don't see how the government could make that mandatory for private parties - someone somewhere will scream about invasion of privacy and other such.

It's much better that they only scream when they find their loved one has been shot to death by a criminal who bought a gun from someone who didn't have to do any background checks.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:13 pm

Amirya wrote:The problem with that is I, as a law abiding gun owning citizen, am approached by you, the violent criminal psychopath, because you want to purchase this particular weapon from me in a private sale. It is no different than if you also wanted to purchase my (non-existent) 2002 Honda Accord.

I don't have to do a credit check to sell you my car; I don't have to do a background check to sell you my gun. And frankly, I don't see how the government could make that mandatory for private parties - someone somewhere will scream about invasion of privacy and other such.

When it comes to selling your car, don't you still have to go to the registration office (or somewhere) and say "hey, I don't own this car anymore, that guy does."
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:55 pm

I don't know about the car selling part, my ex had our first one repossessed; my second one I just gave loaned to my little brother. But probably.

Also, don't get me wrong. I do believe in mandatory background checks, and I do believe that private parties should also be required to do them. But at the same time, I do find that a majority of US gun owners are also screaming raving lunatics (note: majority, not all). As an example, I can't fathom a single freakin' reason why civilians should have access to assault weapons, but somehow, that is their "right to defend their home" against the theoretical home invader.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:34 pm

Amirya wrote:I don't know about the car selling part, my ex had our first one repossessed; my second one I just gave loaned to my little brother. But probably.

Also, don't get me wrong. I do believe in mandatory background checks, and I do believe that private parties should also be required to do them. But at the same time, I do find that a majority of US gun owners are also screaming raving lunatics (note: majority, not all). As an example, I can't fathom a single freakin' reason why civilians should have access to assault weapons, but somehow, that is their "right to defend their home" against the theoretical home invader.

Because a law-abiding citizen can sell an assault rifle to a criminal without the need of a background check, so criminals have assault rifles, and therefore law-abiding citizens need assault rifles to defend themselves from the criminals they sell assault rifles to.

With the car thing - yes, you do have to file a change of registration for the vehicle, so they know where to send any parking tickets.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:37 pm

Amirya wrote:I don't know about the car selling part, my ex had our first one repossessed; my second one I just gave loaned to my little brother. But probably.

Also, don't get me wrong. I do believe in mandatory background checks, and I do believe that private parties should also be required to do them. But at the same time, I do find that a majority of US gun owners are also screaming raving lunatics (note: majority, not all). As an example, I can't fathom a single freakin' reason why civilians should have access to assault weapons, but somehow, that is their "right to defend their home" against the theoretical home invader.
That's a fairly ridiculous comment though, there's no possible way you have any idea what even an infinitesimally small percentage of gun owners believe, much less the majority.

I grew up in an area where absolutely everyone had guns (usually multiple) and schools were closed on the first day of buck and doe season because no one would go to school on those days anyhow. Yet I knew no one that had or desired an assault rifle. I don't find your categorization accurate.

Also Skye103, the answer to your question is no. You don't have to go get your car registered unless you plan on driving it on public roads. There's no equivalent to public roads for guns. Unfortunately, they require no publicly provided space to work
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:44 pm

The buyer doesn't have to register the car, but the seller must file a change-of-ownership form to notify that he is no longer responsible for the vehicle. The "pink slip" needs to be changed to acknowledge the new owner, or he will not be able to sell the car to a third person, and the original owner would be liable for any fines from illegal parking or disposal of the vehicle.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:48 pm

That would be the difference between "I find" and "this is Truth" isn't it Fridmarr?

I find blondes to be stupid vs Blondes are stupid.

I find redheads to be perpetual drunks vs Redheads are perpetual drunks.

I find males to be in love with pink sparkly butterfly wings and dream of dancing in ballet vs Males want to dance in ballet while wearing pink sparkly butterfly wings.

Those are all ridiculous comments in the eyes of someone, but that doesn't mean that they're true - it would mean that that's my experience with them (which, incidentally, isn't actually the case this time around).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:54 pm

Not really. First that varies by state, not all require a change of ownership notification. Second, even if yours does, you usually don't need to do it legally. It is just a potential hassel later if you don't.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:00 pm

Amirya wrote:That would be the difference between "I find" and "this is Truth" isn't it Fridmarr?

I find blondes to be stupid vs Blondes are stupid.

I find redheads to be perpetual drunks vs Redheads are perpetual drunks.

I find males to be in love with pink sparkly butterfly wings and dream of dancing in ballet vs Males want to dance in ballet while wearing pink sparkly butterfly wings.

Those are all ridiculous comments in the eyes of someone, but that doesn't mean that they're true - it would mean that that's my experience with them (which, incidentally, isn't actually the case this time around).

That logic makes no sense. Just because a comment that is clearly ridiculous is based on perception doesn't make it any less ridiculous.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:14 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Not really. First that varies by state, not all require a change of ownership notification. Second, even if yours does, you usually don't need to do it legally. It is just a potential hassel later if you don't.

Fair enough. When I was in California, you had to sign over the pink slip or you maintained interest in the vehicle and were therefore liable for anything done with the vehicle.

Along the Pacific Coast Highway, there was one such case where the vehicle was disposed of by being rolled off a cliff. The registered owner of the vehicle was sued by the state for littering in a protected area if he didn't remove the vehicle. So even though the car was no longer his, the guy had to pay for a crane to pull the car up so it could be disposed of properly.

I remember it because the crane operator snagged the car on some rocks on the way up and continued to pull until the crane sheared off the 40-odd bolts connecting it to the trailer and almost went over the side. They had to get another crane to recover the crane recovering the car.

That and it's pretty slow along the PCH, so any excitement like that is something to go see.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:27 pm

Yeah well that's the potential hassel. A lot of that exists though because of prima facie laws (presumed guilt, as is the case for most minor infractions), he could have fought that and probably prevailed assuming he had all his stuff in order.

Obviously most people are going to register/transfer their vehicles, I'm just saying it's not a proper comparison to gun registration. I have no problem with a full private(ish) gun registry, it would just be difficult to implement.

I think that there are other areas where you can make a more meaningful impact, but we went through all of this a few times over already.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:38 pm

there is also a HUGE difference between those that grew up in areas like Frid and i did, where we grew up with guns and viewed them as tools to help provide food for your family, and a lot of idiots in large cities that view them as penile extensions

yes, Ami's comment may seem ridiculous to us, but in her view, based on where she lives and her back ground, the ones that are toting guns around are the loud idiots, not those raised with guns and taught to respect them
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