Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Invisusira's playground

Moderators: Aergis, Invisusira

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:24 pm

"When it comes to the issue of background checks, let’s be honest – background checks will never be 'universal' – because criminals will never submit to them"
http://livewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/e ... me?ref=fpb

Is it just me or does that sound more like "Because is not 100% effective, its not worth implementing"?
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9349
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Tue Jan 29, 2013 3:27 pm

isnt the point to limit the sale of guns to the criminals?
so if they dont submit to it, they dont get a gun?
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:39 pm

The problem with that is I, as a law abiding gun owning citizen, am approached by you, the violent criminal psychopath, because you want to purchase this particular weapon from me in a private sale. It is no different than if you also wanted to purchase my (non-existent) 2002 Honda Accord.

I don't have to do a credit check to sell you my car; I don't have to do a background check to sell you my gun. And frankly, I don't see how the government could make that mandatory for private parties - someone somewhere will scream about invasion of privacy and other such.
Image

Fetzie wrote:The Defias Brotherhood is back, and this time they are acting as racketeers in Goldshire. Anybody wishing to dance for money must now pay them protection money or be charged triple the normal amount when repairing.
Amirya
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2952
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:59 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:00 pm

Amirya wrote:The problem with that is I, as a law abiding gun owning citizen, am approached by you, the violent criminal psychopath, because you want to purchase this particular weapon from me in a private sale. It is no different than if you also wanted to purchase my (non-existent) 2002 Honda Accord.

I don't have to do a credit check to sell you my car; I don't have to do a background check to sell you my gun. And frankly, I don't see how the government could make that mandatory for private parties - someone somewhere will scream about invasion of privacy and other such.

It's much better that they only scream when they find their loved one has been shot to death by a criminal who bought a gun from someone who didn't have to do any background checks.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1663
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Skye1013 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:13 pm

Amirya wrote:The problem with that is I, as a law abiding gun owning citizen, am approached by you, the violent criminal psychopath, because you want to purchase this particular weapon from me in a private sale. It is no different than if you also wanted to purchase my (non-existent) 2002 Honda Accord.

I don't have to do a credit check to sell you my car; I don't have to do a background check to sell you my gun. And frankly, I don't see how the government could make that mandatory for private parties - someone somewhere will scream about invasion of privacy and other such.

When it comes to selling your car, don't you still have to go to the registration office (or somewhere) and say "hey, I don't own this car anymore, that guy does."
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3528
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:55 pm

I don't know about the car selling part, my ex had our first one repossessed; my second one I just gave loaned to my little brother. But probably.

Also, don't get me wrong. I do believe in mandatory background checks, and I do believe that private parties should also be required to do them. But at the same time, I do find that a majority of US gun owners are also screaming raving lunatics (note: majority, not all). As an example, I can't fathom a single freakin' reason why civilians should have access to assault weapons, but somehow, that is their "right to defend their home" against the theoretical home invader.
Image

Fetzie wrote:The Defias Brotherhood is back, and this time they are acting as racketeers in Goldshire. Anybody wishing to dance for money must now pay them protection money or be charged triple the normal amount when repairing.
Amirya
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2952
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:59 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:34 pm

Amirya wrote:I don't know about the car selling part, my ex had our first one repossessed; my second one I just gave loaned to my little brother. But probably.

Also, don't get me wrong. I do believe in mandatory background checks, and I do believe that private parties should also be required to do them. But at the same time, I do find that a majority of US gun owners are also screaming raving lunatics (note: majority, not all). As an example, I can't fathom a single freakin' reason why civilians should have access to assault weapons, but somehow, that is their "right to defend their home" against the theoretical home invader.

Because a law-abiding citizen can sell an assault rifle to a criminal without the need of a background check, so criminals have assault rifles, and therefore law-abiding citizens need assault rifles to defend themselves from the criminals they sell assault rifles to.

With the car thing - yes, you do have to file a change of registration for the vehicle, so they know where to send any parking tickets.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1663
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:37 pm

Amirya wrote:I don't know about the car selling part, my ex had our first one repossessed; my second one I just gave loaned to my little brother. But probably.

Also, don't get me wrong. I do believe in mandatory background checks, and I do believe that private parties should also be required to do them. But at the same time, I do find that a majority of US gun owners are also screaming raving lunatics (note: majority, not all). As an example, I can't fathom a single freakin' reason why civilians should have access to assault weapons, but somehow, that is their "right to defend their home" against the theoretical home invader.
That's a fairly ridiculous comment though, there's no possible way you have any idea what even an infinitesimally small percentage of gun owners believe, much less the majority.

I grew up in an area where absolutely everyone had guns (usually multiple) and schools were closed on the first day of buck and doe season because no one would go to school on those days anyhow. Yet I knew no one that had or desired an assault rifle. I don't find your categorization accurate.

Also Skye103, the answer to your question is no. You don't have to go get your car registered unless you plan on driving it on public roads. There's no equivalent to public roads for guns. Unfortunately, they require no publicly provided space to work
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6464
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:44 pm

The buyer doesn't have to register the car, but the seller must file a change-of-ownership form to notify that he is no longer responsible for the vehicle. The "pink slip" needs to be changed to acknowledge the new owner, or he will not be able to sell the car to a third person, and the original owner would be liable for any fines from illegal parking or disposal of the vehicle.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1663
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:48 pm

That would be the difference between "I find" and "this is Truth" isn't it Fridmarr?

I find blondes to be stupid vs Blondes are stupid.

I find redheads to be perpetual drunks vs Redheads are perpetual drunks.

I find males to be in love with pink sparkly butterfly wings and dream of dancing in ballet vs Males want to dance in ballet while wearing pink sparkly butterfly wings.

Those are all ridiculous comments in the eyes of someone, but that doesn't mean that they're true - it would mean that that's my experience with them (which, incidentally, isn't actually the case this time around).
Image

Fetzie wrote:The Defias Brotherhood is back, and this time they are acting as racketeers in Goldshire. Anybody wishing to dance for money must now pay them protection money or be charged triple the normal amount when repairing.
Amirya
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2952
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:59 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:54 pm

Not really. First that varies by state, not all require a change of ownership notification. Second, even if yours does, you usually don't need to do it legally. It is just a potential hassel later if you don't.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6464
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:00 pm

Amirya wrote:That would be the difference between "I find" and "this is Truth" isn't it Fridmarr?

I find blondes to be stupid vs Blondes are stupid.

I find redheads to be perpetual drunks vs Redheads are perpetual drunks.

I find males to be in love with pink sparkly butterfly wings and dream of dancing in ballet vs Males want to dance in ballet while wearing pink sparkly butterfly wings.

Those are all ridiculous comments in the eyes of someone, but that doesn't mean that they're true - it would mean that that's my experience with them (which, incidentally, isn't actually the case this time around).

That logic makes no sense. Just because a comment that is clearly ridiculous is based on perception doesn't make it any less ridiculous.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6464
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:14 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Not really. First that varies by state, not all require a change of ownership notification. Second, even if yours does, you usually don't need to do it legally. It is just a potential hassel later if you don't.

Fair enough. When I was in California, you had to sign over the pink slip or you maintained interest in the vehicle and were therefore liable for anything done with the vehicle.

Along the Pacific Coast Highway, there was one such case where the vehicle was disposed of by being rolled off a cliff. The registered owner of the vehicle was sued by the state for littering in a protected area if he didn't remove the vehicle. So even though the car was no longer his, the guy had to pay for a crane to pull the car up so it could be disposed of properly.

I remember it because the crane operator snagged the car on some rocks on the way up and continued to pull until the crane sheared off the 40-odd bolts connecting it to the trailer and almost went over the side. They had to get another crane to recover the crane recovering the car.

That and it's pretty slow along the PCH, so any excitement like that is something to go see.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1663
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:27 pm

Yeah well that's the potential hassel. A lot of that exists though because of prima facie laws (presumed guilt, as is the case for most minor infractions), he could have fought that and probably prevailed assuming he had all his stuff in order.

Obviously most people are going to register/transfer their vehicles, I'm just saying it's not a proper comparison to gun registration. I have no problem with a full private(ish) gun registry, it would just be difficult to implement.

I think that there are other areas where you can make a more meaningful impact, but we went through all of this a few times over already.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 6464
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:38 pm

there is also a HUGE difference between those that grew up in areas like Frid and i did, where we grew up with guns and viewed them as tools to help provide food for your family, and a lot of idiots in large cities that view them as penile extensions

yes, Ami's comment may seem ridiculous to us, but in her view, based on where she lives and her back ground, the ones that are toting guns around are the loud idiots, not those raised with guns and taught to respect them
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:16 am

Oi...

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/01/29/h ... -of-legos/

Might as well ban the use of the capital L and capital J ...
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9349
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Jabari » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:21 am

Amirya wrote:As an example, I can't fathom a single freakin' reason why civilians should have access to assault weapons, but somehow, that is their "right to defend their home" against the theoretical home invader.


General question (not directed at you Amirya - this post was just a convenient trigger):

What is the purpose of the Second Amendment?
Most people want the wealth produced by a society with limited government distributed to them more generously by bigger government.
Jabari
 
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:46 am

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:30 am

Jabari wrote:
Amirya wrote:As an example, I can't fathom a single freakin' reason why civilians should have access to assault weapons, but somehow, that is their "right to defend their home" against the theoretical home invader.


General question (not directed at you Amirya - this post was just a convenient trigger):

What is the purpose of the Second Amendment?

Depends on whom you ask, which kind of hinges in a comma.
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9349
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:51 am

the way it was taught to me is to help provide for a militia at a time when we didnt have a large standing army.
the militia today is the national guard - citizen soldiers that are trained to be military personnel when needed and called up to be active

not going into my personal beliefs on the subject currently, but that is what i was taught in history class and through having several family members and friends be both active duty and reserve/national guard
Image

Brekkie:Tanks are like shitty DPS. And healers are like REALLY distracted DPS
Amirya:Why yes, your penis is longer than his because you hit 30k dps in the first 10 seconds. But guess what? That raid boss has a dick bigger than your ego.
Flex:I don't make mistakes. I execute carefully planned strategic group wipes.
Levie:(in /g) It's weird, I have a collar and I dont know where I got it from, Worgen are kinky!
Levie:Drunk Lev goes and does what he pleases just to annoy sober Lev.
Sagara:You see, you need to *spread* the bun before you insert the hot dog.
User avatar
bldavis
 
Posts: 6111
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:04 pm
Location: Searching for myself. If i get back before I return, please have me stop and wait for myself.

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Holyblaze » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:25 pm

I do not like to mix my gaming world with real life, but this has become very interesting to me at this point.

Here is a link to a letter signed by 1,100 Green Berets in defense of the 2nd Amendment

http://sofrep.com/16644/1000-green-bere ... amendment/


Below is a small exerpt from it:

"...First, we need to set the record straight on a few things. The current debate is over so-called “assault weapons” and high capacity magazines. The terms “assault weapon” and “assault rifle” are often confused. According to Bruce H. Kobayashi and Joseph E. Olson, writing in the Stanford Law and Policy Review, “Prior to 1989, the term ‘assault weapon’ did not exist in the lexicon of firearms. It is a political term [underline added for emphasis], developed by anti-gun publicists to expand the category of assault rifles...”
"Take what you know of the Light...when you walk in darkness." - Mom
Holyblaze
 
Posts: 551
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:55 am
Location: Alaska

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Holyblaze » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:46 pm

OH YEAH! For the record...I am an Alaskan. Me and all my friends grew up with guns. My daughter and son grew up with them. They have been trained to use them as I was and my fater before me and so it has ever been. Alaska is a very free kinda place. People can still do almost as they please.

There are no peoples on the face of this earth born free like we in the US. We, I say we as it is our taxes that are used, the peoples of the United States, feed a huge portion of the world. We fight back oppresed people all over the world and our sons and our daughters fight and die on soil that is not there own.

It is simple to me and the way I think. A people cannot stay free unless they fight to keep it that way. Fighting here in America is in the political world anymore, but that is only on the account that we born free peoples have the RIGHT to keep and bear arms. If the last 4 years in our political system is any idication, it is more important than ever and stand up for all peoples rights.

haha bah!

Holyblaze

(It is governments nature to control all it can.)
"Take what you know of the Light...when you walk in darkness." - Mom
Holyblaze
 
Posts: 551
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:55 am
Location: Alaska

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:28 pm

No offense, but I can board an airplane in Auckland and get off in Napier without ever passing through a metal detector, much less have to remove my shoes and have my luggage gone through. Where you have the TSA and invasive X-ray checks, we have beagles. They do a better job, cost less, and are friendlier than TSA agents.

Our average police officers don't carry guns, although there is generally a shotgun in the cruiser should they need it.

Our crime rate is low. We're ranked the top country in the world to visit and in which to conduct business.

We're pretty damn free down here.

But we do not have a right to bear arms. It is a privilege granted to people who qualify for a firearms license and pass a firearms test. Even then, people can't own handguns unless they belong to a pistol club and have additional qualifications to their license. Further qualifications are required to own military-style semi-automatic weapons.

This impacts the daily life of New Zealanders not at all. Honestly, we don't need to be armed to feel safe.

And quite frankly, the very idea that the Chinese are afraid to invade the US because the citizenry has the right to bear arms is ludicrous. Your freedom is protected by your massive high-tech military, the budget for which is crippling your economy. Any invading force wouldn't give a crap if you had guns or not. Unless you've got anti-aircraft, RPGs, tanks, and such, you're not even a speed bump.
Un-Retired. Ish. Koatanga, Shapely, Sultry of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1663
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Levantine » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:58 am

Ugh. Alaskans. You have a very strange idea of freedom when it's the red that is seeking to quash the rights of so many groups of people that don't fit neatly into your perceived notion of what is 'right'. Heaven forbid someone else threaten your right to carry what amounts to BB-guns in a full scale war and put the safety of individuals over the illusion of safety. Shouldn't what's good for one be good for the other? Or is the 'elite' group of people the only one you actually care about?
User avatar
Levantine
 
Posts: 7367
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:48 pm
Location: NQ, Aus

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby theckhd » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:42 am

To be fair, Alaska is probably a lot like central Pennsylvania. Lots of hunters who use their rifles for sport. I doubt very many of them seriously believe they would use them to defend against the government. There are a decent number of them that talk big about such things, but most aren't actually silly enough to believe it.

You also have a very different situation than in a big city. The population is much more spread out in much of PA. If you live out in the boonies, you don't have regular or expedient police coverage. If someone's trying to break into your house, a firearm is basically your best defense, because it will take 20-30 minutes for police to show up at minimum.

However, people who grow up in that culture are also taught to respect guns more than your average city-dweller, in my experience. My fiancee (and everyone in her family) took gun safety classes as a child, they lock their firearms up properly, and so forth.

And of course, they primarily own hunting rifles, and the occasional pistol. That said, the discussion earlier in this thread of what exactly constitutes "semi-automatic" still seems relevant. I'm not knowledgeable enough about firearms to know where these weapons would fall in the categorization. I grew up in a city near Philadelphia, so I didn't grow up in the hunting culture, have never gone hunting or fired a weapon more dangerous than a BB gun, and so on. We didn't even get the first day of buck season off for school, unlike my fiancee's school.
"Theck, Bringer of Numbers and Pounding Headaches," courtesy of Grehn|Skipjack.
Simcraft 6.x, Call to Arms 6.0, Talent Spec & Glyph Guide 6.x, Blog: Sacred Duty
User avatar
theckhd
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 3:06 pm
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:44 am

I think he was being facetious...
The Element of Forum Hyperbole
Image
---
Flüttershy - Draenei Protection Paladin, Aerie Peak
Klaudandus - BE Protection Paladin, Feathermoon (Semi-retired)
User avatar
Klaudandus
 
Posts: 9349
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:08 am
Location: Texas' Armpit

PreviousNext

Return to Arkham Asylum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest