Remove Advertisements

Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Invisusira's playground

Moderators: Aergis, Invisusira

Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Koatanga wrote:Not to derail, but to give an example of a Public Health System At Work:

Today my daughter was running around at Sunday School. She tripped and did a face-plant, breaking one of her front teeth at the gum line. She's only 7. We took her to the medics, where she got a temporary cap that should last between 1 and 5 years, which will then be replaced by another, etc. until she's 18, when she'll get a permanent cap.

Because it was an accident, it's completely covered by the government - no out-of-pocket for us now or in the future.

I am pretty sure if I was in the 'States that would only be coverred under a separate dental plan, which few people have anyway.

A lot of people opt not to have it, but it's really cheap. By comparison medical bills can easily be hundreds of times more costly than bills you'll generally encounter at a dentist. Plus with proper care you can really cut on those costs, so that's the logic there with people choosing not to have it. Though I think it often backfires because then they choose not to go to their routine dental visits which can come back to bite them.

Assuming you have an income (at least in a US model), while the procedure had no out of pocket cost for you at that moment, you have been and will always be paying for it.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9640
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Election 2012

Postby Fivelives » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:23 pm

Dental plans are kind of ridiculously expensive here. For blue cross/blue shield at my work, I pay $22/paycheck, or $44/month. For my dental plan, I pay $70/paycheck - more than 3 times as much - and I have a higher deductible and co-pay. It also won't cover "elective" procedures. If I want to get implants or even just something simple like bleaching, I have to pay 100% out of pocket. Crowns also aren't covered, but extractions are.

I could pay $221/month and get the "premium" plan that covers everything ($1000 deductible and $100 copay), but that's ridiculous. I could buy a new car for the cost of dental insurance alone.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 3034
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:32 pm

You may want to shop around a bit outside of the plans your work offers, just plugging in an AZ zip code into dentalinsurance.com yields pretty solid coverage for less than $20 per month. Elective stuff is almost never covered on anything, that's why its elective.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9640
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Election 2012

Postby Koatanga » Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:10 pm

Fridmarr wrote:A lot of people opt not to have it, but it's really cheap. By comparison medical bills can easily be hundreds of times more costly than bills you'll generally encounter at a dentist. Plus with proper care you can really cut on those costs, so that's the logic there with people choosing not to have it. Though I think it often backfires because then they choose not to go to their routine dental visits which can come back to bite them.

Assuming you have an income (at least in a US model), while the procedure had no out of pocket cost for you at that moment, you have been and will always be paying for it.

Of course I realise that I pay for it. My example was to show that a government healthcare sytem can actually do its job and do it pretty well.

Whether you pay for insurance, or your company pays you less because they pay your insurance, or you pay taxes that pay for your health care, it's all pretty much the same as far as the working man is concerned. Money gets paid out, and health care is there when you need it.

In the private system, a lot of money goes to advertising, redundant overhead, lawsuit payouts, and of course The Bottom Line Profit. In a public system, a lot of money goes to inherent government inefficiency and covering noncontributors.
Koatanga, Capnhammer, Shapely, Sultry, Boondoggle, Doominatrix of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1878
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:49 pm

Yeah, I have no delusions that a government healthcare system can't work. There are certainly examples of reasonably effective public health systems out there.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9640
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Election 2012

Postby Jabari » Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:00 pm

Probably not completely on topic, but related to political environments and such.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2170677/Caroline-Stern-George-Hess-arrested-dancing-New-York-City-subway-platform.html#ixzz205iPYlIZ

New York City, of course. The government there really wants to control every waking second of every citizen's day.

(Note: "Citizen", not "Subject". Maybe. The King's Enforcers can't have anyone step out of line, I guess.)

As an aside: Why is it that we have to get all our news from either the UK's Daily Mail or from Rolling Stone Magazine? What on earth happened to the media in this country? Was Watergate really THAT long ago?
Most people want the wealth produced by a society with limited government distributed to them more generously by bigger government.
Jabari
 
Posts: 613
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:46 am

Re: Election 2012

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:37 am

God, if you're getting your news from the Daily Mail things must be pretty dire.
I don't play WoW any more.
Donnan - Nangun - Kysen - Kysen - Mardun - Timkins

Mostly-Book Blog.
KysenMurrin
 
Posts: 6675
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:37 am
Location: UK

Re: Election 2012

Postby Fivelives » Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:07 am

Fridmarr wrote:You may want to shop around a bit outside of the plans your work offers, just plugging in an AZ zip code into dentalinsurance.com yields pretty solid coverage for less than $20 per month. Elective stuff is almost never covered on anything, that's why its elective.


Just checked that out. There aren't any providers within 100 miles of me that take any of the discount plans offered through there, but I'll keep digging. I didn't think about shopping around for a discount plan instead of taking the coverage offered through work - thanks for the tip there.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 3034
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Election 2012

Postby aureon » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:18 am

Koatanga wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:A lot of people opt not to have it, but it's really cheap. By comparison medical bills can easily be hundreds of times more costly than bills you'll generally encounter at a dentist. Plus with proper care you can really cut on those costs, so that's the logic there with people choosing not to have it. Though I think it often backfires because then they choose not to go to their routine dental visits which can come back to bite them.

Assuming you have an income (at least in a US model), while the procedure had no out of pocket cost for you at that moment, you have been and will always be paying for it.

Of course I realise that I pay for it. My example was to show that a government healthcare sytem can actually do its job and do it pretty well.

Whether you pay for insurance, or your company pays you less because they pay your insurance, or you pay taxes that pay for your health care, it's all pretty much the same as far as the working man is concerned. Money gets paid out, and health care is there when you need it.

In the private system, a lot of money goes to advertising, redundant overhead, lawsuit payouts, and of course The Bottom Line Profit. In a public system, a lot of money goes to inherent government inefficiency and covering noncontributors.


Let's analyze data.
European countries have, as a rough figure, 8-10% GDP spending on healthcare (public+private) and are usually ranked in top 10 life expentancy/WHO health ranking.
USA spends 16% and more, and is ranked well in the 30's.

It seems kind of obvious which way is the more efficient one. Government is not ALWAYS less efficient than private enterprises, especially when "call" jobs are in.
I don't know in America, but most med school students here (And figures would get worse if we factor in the costs of med school in both places) don't take the 8+ years of studying for the cash, but for "i want to save lives". (With due exceptions, of course)

And we get away with paying "normal" (and sometimes too low) salaries to doctors and personnel.
6-8% of gdp sinked in substantially no-output ventures is quite awful, isn't it?
User avatar
aureon
 
Posts: 497
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:41 pm

Re: Election 2012

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:51 am

KysenMurrin wrote:God, if you're getting your news from the Daily Mail things must be pretty dire.

Try researching the libor scandal and see where you end up. You won't find nearly as much from the US media unless you are looking specifically at financial industry rags.

But hey if you want to know why Tom called Katy Kate, we got you covered. Our media is appallingly bad.
Fridmarr
Global Mod
 
Posts: 9640
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:03 am

Re: Election 2012

Postby Skye1013 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:19 pm

That's why I get most of my news from Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert. They make it funny and are probably some of the least biased overall...

Granted, they don't cover everything, but it's about the only news I can stand to watch.
"me no gay, me friends gay, me no like you call me gay, you dumb dumb" -bldavis
"Here are the values that I stand for: I stand for honesty, equality, kindness, compassion, treating people the way you wanna be treated, and helping those in need. To me, those are traditional values. That’s what I stand for." -Ellen Degeneres
"I'm not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance." -Jon Stewart
Horde: Clopin Dylon Sharkbait Xiaman Metria Metapriest
Alliance: Schatze Aleks Deegee Baileyi Sotanaht Danfer Shazta Rawrsalot Roobyroo
User avatar
Skye1013
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 3881
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:47 am
Location: JBPH-Hickam, Hawaii

Re: Election 2012

Postby Fivelives » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:48 pm

I miss the days when reporters were about the news instead of sensationalism and entertainment.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 3034
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Election 2012

Postby Koatanga » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:07 pm

aureon wrote:Let's analyze data.
European countries have, as a rough figure, 8-10% GDP spending on healthcare (public+private) and are usually ranked in top 10 life expentancy/WHO health ranking.
USA spends 16% and more, and is ranked well in the 30's.

To be fair, not all of those countries have quite the obesity epidemic the US does - yet.

I don't know how the numbers work between the amount paid out of the healthcare budget on advertising, lawsuit settlements, profits, and redundant infrastructure vs. insuring people who aren't paying into the system. I know both systems have large loads placed on them because of those factors.

NZ unemployment is not particularly bad at the moment - 6.7% of New Zealanders are unemployed, and employed people represent 64% of the population. That's a lot of people paying into the healthcare system, so I would expect it to be reasonably healthy.

I can't find concise data for the US, but I am seeing figures of around 47% of the US population being employed. A figure like that makes it more difficult for the employed to cover people who are not paying into the system.
Koatanga, Capnhammer, Shapely, Sultry, Boondoggle, Doominatrix of Greenstone - Dath'Remar
Koatanga
 
Posts: 1878
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:46 pm

Re: Election 2012

Postby Jabari » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:34 pm

Going back in the thread a bit to expand on something:

Aubade wrote:You're starting to sound a little "Doomsday" there. I think you have some pretty solid points, but Idk if it's THAT bad.


"Doomsday" is a good word, actually. We've gotten a bit sidetracked with the health care ruling and discussion, but that's not the actual problem that the country faces. We're staring "Death by Debt" in the face, and none of the candidates (the "L" included) are saying a damn thing about it.

Please read the following two things, and then go look at the US Debt Clock and you'll see why:
1) I'm so pessimistic, and
2) Why the results of this election don't matter in the least.

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=196155

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=208447
Most people want the wealth produced by a society with limited government distributed to them more generously by bigger government.
Jabari
 
Posts: 613
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:46 am

Re: Election 2012

Postby Jabari » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:43 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
KysenMurrin wrote:God, if you're getting your news from the Daily Mail things must be pretty dire.

Try researching the libor scandal and see where you end up. You won't find nearly as much from the US media unless you are looking specifically at financial industry rags.

But hey if you want to know why Tom called Katy Kate, we got you covered. Our media is appallingly bad.

Yep. For the LIBOR stuff you'll either end up at a UK site or at Zerohedge (which does a reasonable job, even if they get somewhat ... sensationalistic at times). Not a word out of CNN or similar, and maybe a very brief (and often wrong) mention from the WSJ.

Actually, one of the best financial shows around now is called "Capital Accounts with Lauren Lyster". http://rt.com/programs/capital-account/ Well worth following.

(Oh - that rt.com address? That stands for "Russia Today" - how ironic is that?)
Most people want the wealth produced by a society with limited government distributed to them more generously by bigger government.
Jabari
 
Posts: 613
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:46 am

PreviousNext

Return to Arkham Asylum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest