Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:43 pm

*snort*
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:45 pm

Remember when I said that Education across the country sucks mostly because Texas gets to decide what kids learn in school?
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/magaz ... ed=1&_r=2&

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Education/ ... -make-over
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:59 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:01 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:39 pm

Another day, another shooting...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:22 pm

Klaudandus wrote:Another day, another shooting...

Maybe if there are enough of them, they'll be too commonplace to bother reporting, and people won't have to worry about it anymore.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:27 pm

I know guns don't kill people and that alcohol doesn't make people become alcoholics, but it's getting near time someone stages an intervention and gets the US to sober up with regard to its gun usage.

Persons are safe and responsible. People are idiotic and careless. A person can handle owning a gun, but can people? I have my doubts.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:31 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:43 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:47 pm


Ridiculous on the surface, but schools generally don't act without a complaint and don't suspend for talk of playing with toys.

We're talking about 5-year-olds here, so it's entirely possible one little girl who heard about the recent shootings could have thought that a Hello Kittle Bubble Gun could have killed her. Absurd to you and I, but I have a 7-year-old daughter, and around 5 years old she had serious concerns that absurd things would kill her.

This is to the extent that she would cry about them until we explained how silly she was being. She's not weird or anything, just a normal well-adjusted, imaginative, bright kid. She heard about a meteor wiping out the dinosaurs, so talk of a meteor shower meant imminent death to her.

So now imagine some 5-year-old girl going home to mom and dad, upset that another girl was going to shoot her with a gun and kill her like the kids in Sandy Hook. The parents would flip out and contact the school at once, and the school would have to take every precaution to assure they didn't have a Sandy Hook incident, because if they ignored it and an incident happened, they would be liable.

So this whole things looks absurd to us, but if that's the way the scenario went down, I can easily see it happening as reported.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:49 pm

Klaudandus wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/us/shooting-reported-at-college-in-houston.html?_r=0

Thing about this one is people don't get to say "well they were mentally disturbed and we just need to make sure people like that don't get guns". This wasn't a mentally ill individual deliberately attacking innocents, it was (having read several news stories so far, this article itself doesn't say it) an out and out gunfight between two armed people in a public place...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:03 pm

Koatanga wrote:

Ridiculous on the surface, but schools generally don't act without a complaint and don't suspend for talk of playing with toys.


The problem is that some schools practice no common sense
see http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08 ... d-him?lite

The kid's name is Hunter. Depending on whether its SEE or ASL, the signs for Hunter varies.
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The other one is actually making the "gun" with both hands, then point them and move them forward. Like if you're shooting someone. This one is the most common as this one is the ASL version.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:29 pm

Koatanga wrote:

Ridiculous on the surface, but schools generally don't act without a complaint and don't suspend for talk of playing with toys.

It sounds like parental/school overreaction to me. Instead of sitting the kid who complained down and explaining that playing with toys is different than what happened at Sandy Hook, like a rational person would, they immediately jumped to "OMG THREAT!!!" What pushes it over the line to straight up absurd is the suspension for a "terroristic threat". That's lolworthy.

I used to play cowboys & indians during recess in grade school. I can only imagine how that would fly today.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:39 pm

KysenMurrin wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/us/shooting-reported-at-college-in-houston.html?_r=0

Thing about this one is people don't get to say "well they were mentally disturbed and we just need to make sure people like that don't get guns". This wasn't a mentally ill individual deliberately attacking innocents, it was (having read several news stories so far, this article itself doesn't say it) an out and out gunfight between two armed people in a public place...

Maybe one of them was going to start a shooting spree and the other person was shooting at him to make him stop. Texas is a state with high gun ownership, and people do carry guns to prevent crime, so this could have been a shooting-prevention shooting.

Or it could just be a couple of under-endowed hotheads proving how manly they are.

Fivelives wrote:It sounds like parental/school overreaction to me. Instead of sitting the kid who complained down and explaining that playing with toys is different than what happened at Sandy Hook, like a rational person would, they immediately jumped to "OMG THREAT!!!" What pushes it over the line to straight up absurd is the suspension for a "terroristic threat". That's lolworthy.

I used to play cowboys & indians during recess in grade school. I can only imagine how that would fly today.


It pretty much all hinges on what the complaining kid told his/her parents. Crying kids are practically unintelligible anyway, so if all the parents got was "Becky" (or whoever) and "gun" and "shoot us" and "don't want to die", then in the wake of Sandy Hook parents could have a freak-out. Depends on the kid, what she told them, and the parents and how paranoid they are.

Look, it's ridiculous to me that the US spent so much on Security Theater in the wake of 9/11 when a few beagles could have done a batter and less intrusive job, so my estimation of the rationality of people in the wake of horrific acts is not overly high.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:42 pm

Koatanga wrote:Or it could just be a couple of under-endowed hotheads proving how manly they are.


The problem is that america, as a society, seems not to be mature enough to solve conflict without either people going to therapy over it, or losing their shit and shoot people
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:22 pm

Koatanga wrote:Ridiculous on the surface, but schools generally don't act without a complaint and don't suspend for talk of playing with toys.

We're talking about 5-year-olds here, so it's entirely possible one little girl who heard about the recent shootings could have thought that a Hello Kittle Bubble Gun could have killed her. Absurd to you and I, but I have a 7-year-old daughter, and around 5 years old she had serious concerns that absurd things would kill her.

This is to the extent that she would cry about them until we explained how silly she was being. She's not weird or anything, just a normal well-adjusted, imaginative, bright kid. She heard about a meteor wiping out the dinosaurs, so talk of a meteor shower meant imminent death to her.

So now imagine some 5-year-old girl going home to mom and dad, upset that another girl was going to shoot her with a gun and kill her like the kids in Sandy Hook. The parents would flip out and contact the school at once, and the school would have to take every precaution to assure they didn't have a Sandy Hook incident, because if they ignored it and an incident happened, they would be liable.

So this whole things looks absurd to us, but if that's the way the scenario went down, I can easily see it happening as reported.

And I completely agree with you in this regard. However (and fuck me for not being able to find the other articles), I've also read that it wasn't even a student complaint at all, just a parent who overheard and complained. Ok, fine, I can even live with that - a parent being parent and all. What bothers me about the whole thing is that, after the required session with the school counselor who said she doesn't have the disposition for "terroristic threats", after determining there was no gun (toy or otherwise) on the girl's person, at school, or at home, instead of saying, "Ok, we're sorry for the hoops, but we had to do this," and clearing her record and lifting the suspension - I'm bothered that they still suspended her and have now marked her as "making harmful threats." What harmful threat was she making? Blowing bubbles?

There's a dozen different ways they could have handled that. Once everything was done, she's still labelled as a troublemaker, this time without cause.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:33 pm

Klaudandus wrote:
Koatanga wrote:Or it could just be a couple of under-endowed hotheads proving how manly they are.


The problem is that america, as a society, seems not to be mature enough to solve conflict without either people going to therapy over it, or losing their shit and shoot people
Image


Honestly, I think it's no better elsewhere - we as a species are not mature enough to be responsible for more than our monkeysphere. Only thing is, it's something different elsewhere. It can be depression, suicide, social isolation. You just had the right elements for it to be shootings.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:35 pm

Ah yes, Dunbar's number...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:42 pm

Sagara wrote:
Klaudandus wrote:
Koatanga wrote:Or it could just be a couple of under-endowed hotheads proving how manly they are.


The problem is that america, as a society, seems not to be mature enough to solve conflict without either people going to therapy over it, or losing their shit and shoot people
Image


Honestly, I think it's no better elsewhere - we as a species are not mature enough to be responsible for more than our monkeysphere. Only thing is, it's something different elsewhere. It can be depression, suicide, social isolation. You just had the right elements for it to be shootings.

I think the difference is that if I get pissed off at someone and hit him with a baseball bat, his odds of survival are greater than if I was to get pissed off and hit him with a bullet.

I personally think New Zealand has a reasonably rational approach toward gun control - the basic firearms license allows you to own sporting rifles and shotguns, then you have to get additional qualifications for "military-style semi-automatics" or pistols that have more stringent requirements than the basic firearms license.

Possession of firearms in anticipation of using it for self-defense is prohibited, but using a firearm for self-defense is legal under certain circumstances, and each case is reviewed on its own merits. Firearms can be confiscated and license revoked if the license holder is the subject of a domestic violence charge.

It seems to work pretty well. Incidents of gun crime are pretty rare, although they still happen.

However, we enjoy a high standard of living and are usually among the top countries in the world in which to live and do business. The US, as a declining superpower, has far more problems affecting its population, and a lot more pressure building up on its people. National debt, wars, unemployment, foreclosures, declining property values - it all adds up to a level of stress that is more likely to cause people to break.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:54 pm

The administrators are the gatekeepers, the concerns of emotional parents and children ought to meet common sense when they are elevated to that level. Such heavy handed punishments (that are potentially far more harmful than the incident itself) require a certain amount of due diligence and scrutiny. There's no way that occurred in this case. The administrators quite clearly failed.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:45 pm

Fridmarr wrote:The administrators are the gatekeepers, the concerns of emotional parents and children ought to meet common sense when they are elevated to that level. Such heavy handed punishments (that are potentially far more harmful than the incident itself) require a certain amount of due diligence and scrutiny. There's no way that occurred in this case. The administrators quite clearly failed.

If it's like most bureaucratic organisations, the admins will have district policy by which they must abide. I would think that at this particularly sensitive time, those policies would be followed to the letter by people whose main concern is covering their asses.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:03 am

Again, the implementation of those policies has to meet up with common sense. Otherwise you end up calling a 5 year old girl with a toy full of soapy water, a terrorist. The result is far more harmful to the school, the administration, and especially the children that they are supposed to be serving than the incident itself. There's no excuse, none.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:06 am

Completely agree with Fridmarr.

Reminds me of something that happened after I joined the school district where I work at. I had to repair a computer at a self-contained room, where a bunch of high school kids with emotional issues were grouped together, supposedly to be taken care of by specialized teachers...

Well, I get there and its basically your average zoo cage filled with shit-flinging monkeys... kids not following the teachers' directives, yelling obscenities, you name it... but for one kid that was actually on his designated desk and writing down whatever the poor teacher was try teach...

But a security guard comes into the room, and takes the kid that was actually doing something away... because he was high...

I understand that they needed to do something about the kid that was high, but at the same time, I facepalmed because he was the only one that was actually following instructions, whereas the ones doing whatever they wanted had no repercussions whatsoever...

Just noting on the absurdity of things...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:04 am

not quite political, but still in the same vein

http://gma.yahoo.com/teacher-posted-facebook-photo-students-duct-tape-141840410--abc-news-topstories.html#

so by going along with the joke, and being a cool teacher (and reminding me of some of my favorite teachers) she is getting fired...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:56 am

Sounds like, from the early part of the article, the issue is not the duct tape but the fact she posted a picture of her students online, and whether that violates their privacy. Presumably the law would say the parents need to agree to something like that.
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