Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Dantriges » Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:06 am

Fridmarr wrote:Dantriges

Heh, well first our smallville schools generally outperform our inner city schools, as do private schools out perform public schools with out all that government oversight.  The reasons for that isn't purely a red/blue urban/suburban thing, but my point is merely that there's not a problem there to be solved by the feds. I'm also not suggesting that the Fed has no role at all, merely that the bulk of these sorts of things are almost always better handles locally where there is more accountability and agility.


Ah k, heard that your public school system is pretty bad. Yeah probably strengthening local management will be better.

Also, that tax system you joked about, is exactly what we do in fact have.  Our states don't send money to the feds.  The feds tax the people and then disburse that money to the states.  The states tax the people too, but generally keep it or distribute it to lower levels of gov.  The state I live in doesn't even have an income tax, so I don't even file state taxes.  I still pay them of course, just differently than I do federal.


Ah ok.

What I was getting at about the programs being able to be run at the state level if the fed disappeared, is that the heavy federal level is not needed and again, often simply gets in the way.  Obviously they need the money from the feds in the current system, but (and I thought this was obvious) if the fed wasn't taking that money in the first place, then the states could collect what they need and all would be fine, in fact better.


So the idea is that you change your federation to a confederacy model (I mean confederation in general, not the civil war one). Ok, would be probably affecting your foreign involvement if you transfer power from the central to the states. Yeah I assume it´s intend that the fed will handle foreign affairs but I could imagine that changes in other areas like control over the budget, more input from states will change that. Some would say, fine or even celebrate. Wonder how US citizens and the rest of the world will see that in a few years/decades.

You can look at lots of regulations on these programs and other things like the farm bill come to mind, and it's not hard to see how the fed is likely doing more harm than good.  It's at times well intentioned, but we have a big problem with lobbying and especially legislative district vote manipulation, and by concentrating so much power among such a small group of people that are also abstracted away from accountability, it's just going to get worse.  That's pretty much a universal human truth.


Pretty much, IMO most western democracies have changed into oligarchies some time ago.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:51 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:30 pm

Yeah, the popular reaction to euthanasia is really much more mild around here.

The real opposition group that exist is either broken (the Church, and CD-V, the supposedly traditionalist party), or focused on something else (the North/South divide is THE hot topic - yes, we want to divide a country around the size of New York. Don't ask.)
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:48 pm

Can US Citizens go to Belgium to get euthanized? Just curious~ (Planning ahead of time, since all of my family has died before hitting 70 and of cancer)
Last edited by Klaudandus on Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Sagara » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:49 pm

I've never had the situation happen close to me, thank God o_O
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:51 pm

Doesn't Oregon have a "death with dignity" law?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:54 pm

Hmm... ok *adds Oregon to states to visit*

Nah, seriously... my family has lemon genes... we came broken from factory... aunt with breast cancer, mom with cervical cancer, uncle with brain tumor, my zeyde (grandpa) with colon cancer, grandma with lung cancer (nonsmoker)

I'm betting I'll get either prostate, leukemia, osteomyeloma or stomach cancer.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:13 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Doesn't Oregon have a "death with dignity" law?

yes, unless something changed that i missed living here for the past 25+ years
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:18 pm

I believe that we (Washington) have one too. Though it's hard to keep it straight as this stuff tends to make several appearances on the ballot.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:34 am

I know this is old: “If your science gives you a result that you don't like, pass a law saying that the result is illegal. Problem solved.”
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:05 pm

Yes, Oregon does have death with dignity, but it's not a matter of just packing a bag for a last visit. I don't have all the details on hand, but I do know you do have to have established residency before you can even be considered.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:23 pm

Ok, Belgium it is then.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Tue Jan 15, 2013 3:11 pm

lol i was gonna say are you sure you want to move here just for that?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:56 pm

Dantriges wrote:Pretty much, IMO most western democracies have changed into oligarchies some time ago.
That's probably true, it certainly seems that it is in the US. Isn't that a bad thing though? In a world with technological advances like blogging, social media, crowd sourcing etc. that ought to be diminishing, but it isn't.

Given our broader political context and the free market system that it sits on, that result is the inevitable outcome of concentrating more power at the federal level. The weird thing is that culturally there's been a shift here. I'm old enough to remember when folks felt the same way about big gov't as they do about big business, and for good reason. These days big gov't is preached like it's not only the best solution for everything but the only solution. You can see great examples of that in this thread. The ultimate irony there is that it's even touted as the solution to this very problem which in reality it only exacerbates.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:10 pm

Oregon, Montana and Washington require 6 months of residency and signed affidavits from doctors declaring you terminal within 6 months (so you have to plan ahead - when you've only got a year left, that's when you move. Or get residency established somehow at least) as part of their right to die laws. They also have to pronounce you of sound mind.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:42 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Dantriges » Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:31 am

Fridmarr wrote:
Dantriges wrote:Pretty much, IMO most western democracies have changed into oligarchies some time ago.
That's probably true, it certainly seems that it is in the US. Isn't that a bad thing though? In a world with technological advances like blogging, social media, crowd sourcing etc. that ought to be diminishing, but it isn't.

Given our broader political context and the free market system that it sits on, that result is the inevitable outcome of concentrating more power at the federal level. The weird thing is that culturally there's been a shift here. I'm old enough to remember when folks felt the same way about big gov't as they do about big business, and for good reason. These days big gov't is preached like it's not only the best solution for everything but the only solution. You can see great examples of that in this thread. The ultimate irony there is that it's even touted as the solution to this very problem which in reality it only exacerbates.


The process of concentrating power seems to be inevitable anyways. We had the same process repeating itself throughout history, during the antique, medieval ae and imperial age at least. Of course there were processes the other way round but seems that most of these resulted in the country being taken advantage of or even gobbled up by its neighbours. So countries had to enter the power race (leading to an increasing accumulation of power) because their neigbours will. We are rather fortunate that policy today is less cutthroat than it was earlier in history. But IMO you exchange big overbearing gov´t with internal conflict (not violent) and a subsequent loss of influence on the international stage if you transfer power from the fed.

That big business is on the rise is hardly surprising. Power is where the money is. And in the current age, other forms of power are waning and gov´s influence over money weakened quite a bit.

Changing to a small fed, power to the states model will IMO lead to business playing states against each other. No, I don´t mean that there is some kind of central big business conspiracy, I mean that money will just move to a location where it finds the best benefits like lower taxes, better benefits, etc. Or bugger the state to hand over better benefits.

AFAIK same happened in many smaller countries. People simply moved their business or part of it to another place.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:06 pm

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:56 am

Leave it to the unholy love child of religion and politics to figure out a way to use dinosaurs to prove creationism. I mean, really - using beasties that lived millions of years ago as proof that the world was created 6,000 years ago?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:54 pm

Not just any dinosaur, but one that hasn't been documented apart from some fuzzy images and folk tales. Of all the places in the world for a large cold-blooded creature to survive, Scotland does not exactly top the list. Scotland has only 3 native reptiles because the climate is too cold for cold-blooded creatures.

I am actually surprised they are not claiming Bigfoot and the Flying Spaghetti Monster as well.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fivelives » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:28 pm

The fuzzy pictures were even an admitted hoax on the part of the photographers, but people refused to believe the person who shot the pictures and continue to think they're real.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:46 pm

And the Loch was frozen solid for 20,000 years (notoriously bad for cold-blooded reptiles). Although that evidence would be discarded by anyone who believes the earth is only 6000 years old.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:49 pm

Dantriges wrote:The process of concentrating power seems to be inevitable anyways. We had the same process repeating itself throughout history, during the antique, medieval ae and imperial age at least. Of course there were processes the other way round but seems that most of these resulted in the country being taken advantage of or even gobbled up by its neighbours. So countries had to enter the power race (leading to an increasing accumulation of power) because their neigbours will. We are rather fortunate that policy today is less cutthroat than it was earlier in history. But IMO you exchange big overbearing gov´t with internal conflict (not violent) and a subsequent loss of influence on the international stage if you transfer power from the fed.

Well it doesn't have to be inevitable, our federal braches show that. From an international perspective nothing would really change at all.

Dantriges wrote:That big business is on the rise is hardly surprising. Power is where the money is. And in the current age, other forms of power are waning and gov´s influence over money weakened quite a bit.

Arguably it's a two way street, but really you have that exactly reversed. It's money that follows power. I'm not willing to just accept an oligarchy and shrug it off as the only possible result of successful government, that just seems silly. When you are dealing with the scale of the US on top of the free enterprise system that we have in place, of course as you concentrate power it's inevitable. That concentration incentivizes that flow of money, having the power centralized makes that money more "effective", and diminishes accountability all at the same time. It's an impressive trifecta.

Dantriges wrote:Changing to a small fed, power to the states model will IMO lead to business playing states against each other. No, I don´t mean that there is some kind of central big business conspiracy, I mean that money will just move to a location where it finds the best benefits like lower taxes, better benefits, etc. Or bugger the state to hand over better benefits.

AFAIK same happened in many smaller countries. People simply moved their business or part of it to another place.

That's massively overstated. A large federal gov't has not exactly had a positive effect on offshoring. We have a high standard of living and therefore the cost to do business here is high. Some businesses do find cheaper places to conduct parts of their business but that's not related to our government layout, it's just business. I wouldn't expect there to be much of a change in that aspect.

As far as competition, cost isn't the only factor. The US actually has traditionally high costs, besides high labor costs (these days with the much lower value of the dollar labor costs are actually on the lower side), we have nearly the highest (or maybe it is the highest) corporate tax of any OECD country. From a cost perspective, we aren't business friendly. Yet, we are kind of a big player in the corporate world as are many westernized countries that share similar costs, because we provide many other benefits. Our production level for instance is quite high. If your logic were true, the world would be a vastly different place.

Likewise, we do currently have competition at the state level, not as much as I'd like but it exists. States have their own tax systems and some control over labor laws and other practices that can affect business. However, while you may see some movement to states with more corporate friendly legal structures it's hardly massive. In fact, our major business sectors are in states that have the highest costs. Ultimately, the concept of "playing states against each other" is essentially competition and in the long run that's far more of a positive than a negative.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:19 am

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:09 pm

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