Politics (formerly Election 2012)

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:54 pm

Just because a person is unbalanced and capable of donig great harm, doesn't mean that they'll go to absolutely any length to do so. Some will, but by no means all. "Pick up gun, pull trigger" is pretty much the lowest, most no-brainer way for them to go about it. The more steps it takes to reach the end goal, the more effort it involves, the less it's gonna happen. Even stabbing someone is more difficult than shooting them - you have to get close.

Any idiot can shoot a gun; not everyone can make a bomb, not everyone has the strength to carry out physical assaults.

Guns aren't what makes this stuff possible, they're just what makes it easy.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Melathys » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:01 pm

true, bombs take a little more skill, but it doesn't take much skill to start a fire, or make toxic gas. Chlorine and ammonia mixture was used in WWI for chemical warfare, not hard to find those two ingredients, nor difficult to mix them together.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:49 pm

But exceptionally harder to actually deliver correctly to the target rather than just killing yourself while making it or enroute.

Also, I think "Evil" is used too much for things that are horrible - its not evil, and branding it as evil just dooms history to repeat itself, because "evil cannot be stopped" - being against action because "evil would have found another way" is just considered apathy. True Evil may find other ways, but lets not make it easy, right?

When things like this happen, we really need to stop calling it "evil" (first of all because that is a term rooted deeply in religion and starts all the crusade action that pops up every time) we need to see everyone of the perpetrators as completely human, and try to understand how and why it came to the tragedy it was. That is the only way we can make any reasonable difference in the future.

Adam Lanza was not evil, he was a kid (yeah, 20, but still a kid in my eyes) who acted irrationally based on some stimuli - what I have no knowledge of, but acting irrationally does not evil make - even when the act causes tragedy - the second and forgotten tragedy was that it ever came to this, that he never got the help he needed that may well have prevented this.

Also, I feel very much for his father and brother, who are left with very little sympathy because their kin was evil.

I just hope (despite my better judgment) that congress will not follow this tragedy with the tragedy of not doing anything because of entrenched ideologies - though we all know that is the most likely outcome.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Klaudandus » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:13 pm

This is a really good discussion on evil, and how it should be labeled as something else.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq_nCTGSfWE
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Melathys » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:07 pm

Again, missing the point. The -act- was evil. And these acts are premeditated. My point was, people who take it into their minds to do such an act will find a way to do it. The only real hope we have is if people get off the ban guns bandwagon and try to get to the root of the issue, which is mental health identification and treatment. But, as I told my wife when we heard about the Connecticut shooting, I knew the Democrats would jump on this as a reason to ban guns.

I also found this statement regarding high capacity magazines and found interesting, in regards to the Colorado shooting.

You do realize that the AR he carried jammed early on and most of his shooting was done with a Remington 870 pump action shotgun (which you identified as being just fine for home defense) and a Glock 22 with standard capacity magazines. He reloaded the handgun four times as there were three Glock mags found in the theater.

They also found the drum from the AR in the theater as he dropped it since it is a piece of crap. Most ironic part about all this is that the anti-gun folks should be pushing for extremely high capacity drum magazines. They are notoriously unreliable and would cause many shootings to cease due to weapon failures.



oh, btw. Along the lines of the guy making an AK out of a shovel....3D printers in the house.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqzJlBc ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:04 pm

In a lot of ways, we just don't know yet. Maybe we'll get more concrete answers maybe we won't. I haven't heard if the specifics of his mental condition have been released, though I've been avoiding reading about him and instead focusing on the victims, which is where this story really is. I couldn't care less about him. In any event, without that information, all we can do is ignorantly speculate.

I'm not quite sure I understand all this parsing of the word 'evil'. I'm not sure I attach the meaning too it that some here (ironically those opposed to the word) do. The dictionary definition seems sufficient to me and this act certainly qualifies as evil (and help us if we ever can't recognize that).

Maybe his illness excludes his culpability, but that's hardly a foregone conclusion. If you watch the video that Klaud posted (though I don't know that he's really suggesting in the practical sense that evil should be labeled as something else, perhaps in the clinical sense (but we knew that), but even then he points out that cruelty and empathy are not in a symmetrical relationship, meaning you can't equate those terms at all), he mentions how many who commit random massacres, are in fact in the middle of the empathy bell curve. That that curve is only about odds, and does not mean you aren't responsible for your choices just because you are on the bottom end of it. In fact, he particularly calls out that those with the disorders that so far have been associated with the killer (autism/aspergers) specifically do not generally act with cruelty.

To further expand on Mel's comment about, if someone wants to do harm, they can. That's just a recognition that we all tend to live by a social contract that is quite easily abused. People could do very simple things to cause a great deal of harm. We are all very often vulnerable if the people that are nearby us choose to violate that contract. Guns certainly are effective at making that easier, but they aren't mandatory for causing a great deal of harm.

We are especially vulnerable, if the perpetrator doesn't care about his own well being. In fact, one of the common things in these shootings is that they frequently end with suicide, which seems to fall outside the bounds of the empathy curve which really highlights actions of cruelty because they are in one's own self interest.

As far as the gun control stuff, I find it all pretty silly really. We could certainly tighten our laws, but I don't know if it would make a measurable difference. Earlier in this thread, people were quick to suggest that hunters should still be able to acquire guns (and many hunting rifles are far more devastating than a 223). That's a ridiculously simple barrier, any 12 year old kid in PA (one of the states listed with 750k hunters or something like that), can get a hunting license and carry a very high powered rifle after taking a simple hunter's safety course. Guns are so ubiquitous, that I'm not sure there's a reasonable legal solution that will do much. I'm certainly open to hearing suggestions, but I just don't think there much that can be done on that side.

We need cultural changes and I wish the media would change the way they cover these events. When a fan runs on to the field at a pro sports event, the camera pans away and for good reason. Yet when these events occur, the coverage focuses so much on the perpetrators that they achieve their glory and add incentive for others. I realize it's important and proper for some coverage of the perpetrator, but once the name is released, there's no real reason to keep repeating it, to publish photos. Just refer to him as a sort of anonymous assailant, and focus the personal stuff on the victims. Really though that's just a personal preference, I don't know that it would matter at all either.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby JoeBravo » Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:37 am

KysenMurrin wrote:Just because a person is unbalanced and capable of donig great harm, doesn't mean that they'll go to absolutely any length to do so. Some will, but by no means all. "Pick up gun, pull trigger" is pretty much the lowest, most no-brainer way for them to go about it. The more steps it takes to reach the end goal, the more effort it involves, the less it's gonna happen. Even stabbing someone is more difficult than shooting them - you have to get close.

Any idiot can shoot a gun; not everyone can make a bomb, not everyone has the strength to carry out physical assaults.

Guns aren't what makes this stuff possible, they're just what makes it easy.


Also, the presence of other ways of 'doing evil' shouldn't be a reason to not reduce the availability of one of them.

Also, bombs/chemicals require knowledge and preparation which means lots and lots of time to think things through, which means a possibility to come to your senses again. Not something you use in the heat of the moment.

I tend to compare the state of mind of ppl committing such acts to my own state of mind when I was suicidal (anecdotical evidence, I know, but the only refference I have). Anything that takes time to prepare, can make you think and make you have second thoughts.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Boyfriend » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:00 am

I think the point about evil and good is that it's just not a useful concept to use in the analysis of any event. While you can certainly label any type of action as either evil or good, unless you gain further insight into the cause and effect of the action it's not particularly useful to utilize this label. I don't think any one is really disputing the fact that murdering people, particularly children, is Evil, at least I don't see any practical use in concentrating on that aspect, neither evil nor good are direct motivators for people.

Concerning gun control, what I can say from studies in Switzerland is that you wouldn't expect a large change in premeditated violence but impulse actions (notably suicide) drop significantly based on access to guns, that and at least in Switzerland there's absolutely no case to be made for using guns in self defense. Hunting does not particularly suffer from heavy regulation, as hunting itself is in many places heavily regulated and gun ownership could be tied to having appropriate hunting licenses and seasons without adding any further inconvenience for actual hunters but making it more inconvenient to acquire a gun for non-hunting purposes (Which at least according to Swiss statistics there is absolutely no legitimate use case for.)

Guns are a far more efficient killing method (for both suicide as well as homicide) than bombs, chemical or biological. The only incident where improvised weapons performed better than firearms that I can think of is 9/11. An example would be that Breivik spent years preparing his bomb attacks and managed to kill 8 people and 69 with firearms. The unpredictability and imprecise nature of non-firearm weapons makes it much harder to utilize them effectively.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Melathys » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:09 am

Timothy McVeigh begs to differ on that account.

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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby KysenMurrin » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:25 am

You're still missing the point. Just because it's possible to kill in other ways, doesn't mean you shouldn't do something to control a method of killing that is easier and doesn't require significant premeditation.

You can't just pick out a single case of a bomber being successful and somehow say that means anyone with a murderous impulse could do the same.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Boyfriend » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:27 am

The Oklahoma City Bombing killed 168 people, had 4 perpetrators. So 42 deaths per perpetrator, so considering you switched the topic to high scores, in effectiveness terms this still isn't beating the guns high scores. In addition to the number of perpetrators the planning and preparation needed far exceeds what is needed for firearms, which was the only thing I talked about. You might have noticed that I stated that I see no connection between gun ownership and premeditated violence.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Passionario » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:28 am

There are people out there who are alive today because I never owned a gun.

(I'm one of them).
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby JoeBravo » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:28 am

Melathys wrote:Timothy McVeigh begs to differ on that account.

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because there is one execption, there is no truth to it?
gun control won't prevent these things from happening, but it might lessen the chance.
better mental healthcare won't prevent these things from happening, but it might lessen the chance.
brilliant idea: do both! it might lessen the chance!

There is no quick fix or single solution to the problem and it probably isn't completely solvable either, but any one of the solutions might save a life. THAT is what matters.

blogpost that made sense to me: http://bunchfamily.ca/we-need-to-talk-about-politics/
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby JoeBravo » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:30 am

Passionario wrote:There are people out there who are alive today because I never owned a gun.

(I'm one of them).


same.
train not running between midnight and 6 am also helped.

edit: not gonna promote banning trains though.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:24 am

Boyfriend wrote:I think the point about evil and good is that it's just not a useful concept to use in the analysis of any event.
Right that's my point, and since I don't think many people are attempting to use it as a useful analytical term, I'm not sure what the issue is.

Many, if not all of these major violent acts have a decent amount of premeditation with them so I'm not sure delaying access to a gun would have them rethink things, at most it might delay the inevitable. And that's ignoring the fact that you probably can't significantly reduce access to guns with gun control laws here anyhow. I just don't know how you make it so folks can't get a gun, given that almost half the households in the US already have a gun.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Boyfriend » Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:45 am

Fridmarr wrote:Many, if not all of these major violent acts have a decent amount of premeditation with them so I'm not sure delaying access to a gun would have them rethink things, at most it might delay the inevitable. And that's ignoring the fact that you probably can't significantly reduce access to guns with gun control laws here anyhow. I just don't know how you make it so folks can't get a gun, given that almost half the households in the US already have a gun.


No I agree, while maybe in some cases strict gun laws might reduce mass murder events in any case statistically these events are so rare I don't think you can make much of an argument out of them in the first place, it's more of a vehicle to start a discussion. Like serious aircraft accidents these events are rare and if you take into account this rarity they are not as significant in the first place.

My opposition to liberal gun laws are mostly based on the (very much stronger) link between suicide and gun ownership, and (at least in Switzerland) the link between homicide in a domestic setting (IE wife/husband argument getting out of control). I think however the argument is being waged from both sides with far more drama than is necessary as neither strict nor liberal gun laws would really have any effect on most people's day to day lives.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Paxen » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:12 am

I don't agree that hindering access to guns would only delay the event. People who snap in China aren't taking their time getting guns, they're grabbing a knife instead. And a knife is less dangerous than a gun. There are still deaths, but less than half as many.

Premediated acts like the Oklahoma Bomb, Utøya or the school principal who rigged his school with bombs over an entire year are much harder to stop, but are also much rarer.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:59 am

the other thing is in China, there is NO personal firearms
no private owned guns = no access = why bother trying to get one?

yes, that is a case for more control
but with out society in the US, and the ease of buying things smuggled in through mexico, it will probably never be that difficult to buy a gun if you want it bad enough
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Amirya » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:02 am

But that's true of anything - if you want it bad enough, you'll figure out a way to achieve what you want.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby bldavis » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:19 am

very true...
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:49 am

Paxen wrote:I don't agree that hindering access to guns would only delay the event. People who snap in China aren't taking their time getting guns, they're grabbing a knife instead. And a knife is less dangerous than a gun. There are still deaths, but less than half as many.

Premediated acts like the Oklahoma Bomb, Utøya or the school principal who rigged his school with bombs over an entire year are much harder to stop, but are also much rarer.


The events in China are brutal, and bloody, and have been happening at a far "faster" clip than Than people realize. Since 2010.

  • On March 23, 2010, Zheng Minsheng, murdered eight children with a knife in an elementary school in Nanping
  • 4-28-10: Chen Kangbing, at Hongfu Primary School wounded 16 students and a teacher.
  • 4-29-10: Xu Yuyuan went to Zhongxin Kindergarten and stabbed 28 students, two teachers and one security guard most of the Taixing students were 4 years old
  • 4-30-10: Wang Yonglai used a hammer to cause head injury to preschool children in Weifang
  • 5-12-10Wu Huanming, killed seven children and two adults and injured 11 other persons with a cleaver at a kindergarten in Hanzhong, Shaanxi on May 12, 2010;
  • May 18, 2010 at Hainan Institute of Science and Technology, vocational college in Haikou, Hainan, more than 10 men charged into a dormitory wielding knives around 2:30 am; after attacking the security guard and disabling security cameras, 9 students were injured, 1 seriously. The local men attacked the dorm in an act of revenge and retaliation against college students following conflict the previous day at an off-campus food stall in which 4 students were injured, for a total of 13
  • 8-4-10: Fang Jiantang slashed more than 20 children and staff with a 60 cm knife, killing 3 children and 1 teacher, at a kindergarten in Zibo, Shandong
  • 8-2011: Eight children, all aged four or five, were hurt in Minhang District, Shanghai when an employee at a child-care centre for migrant workers slashed them with a box-cutter
  • 9-2011 a young girl and three adults taking their children to nursery school were killed in Gongyi,[19] Henan by 30-year-old Wang Hongbin with an axe.[20] Another child and an adult were seriously wounded but survived.
  • 12-14-12: Man attacks and injures 22 children and teacher outside of school


And these included fatalities. The problem is, the Chinese media has incredibly strict guidelines about what they are able to report, including death.

I guess my opinion is as follows:
Mass violence, is mass violence. It's a horrific tragedy. It's an act that leaves us wondering the reasons why it happened. From the outside, for those unaffected by the trauma, We are able to "grade" the level of violence, based on a body count, or number injured. But to those involved in the tragedy, those who experience the tragedy, those who lose family members to the tragedy, or suffer personally at the hands of it, there is little solace in knowing that "well, at least you were just attacked by a knife! Thank god you weren't Shot! Or, Well, I'm sorry that your child was hacked to death with a hatchet, at least they weren't shot to death!

Dead is dead. Violence is violence. While a gun may "seem" to make the violence "easier" what I've assembled here is a list of attacks on people, at schools in another country. None of these attacks contained a gun. To the people who were affected, there is no "relief" for knowing that they were stabbed, and dismembered, or bludgeoned, rather than being shot.

Gun, Knife, Hammer, Hatchet, to those involved, I'm not sure that the implement of death or injury matters. It only matters that it ends. Gun Control, while a piece of the equation, isn't the only thing that needs to happen.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Koatanga » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:58 pm

Comparing statistics from a country of over a billion to one a quarter of the size... Seems legit.

Guns are far more efficient weapons for killing people than knives are. Hence the transition from swords and bows to firearms for armed combat. Take the numbers and multiply them if guns were involved.

The murder rate in the US is around 4x higher than the norm for western countries, being around 4.2 per 1000 deaths as opposed to around 1 per 1000. That may be due to other factors than the availability of guns, but one has to wonder what is in the water over there if the availability of guns is not at all a factor.

If guns are a contributing factor, well, maybe that's something worth looking at.

From my standpoint, I am happy with people owning hunting rifles and shotguns. Hunting rifles being accurate single-fire weapons designed for sport use are alright because hunting is a legitimate sport and has traditionally been a necessity for food and could be so again in the event of some catastrophe. I'm OK with shotguns for bird hunting and personal defense. The shotgun is the most-feared close-quarters weapon out there, so is ideal for home defense.

I'm not OK with handguns and assault rifles. No one needs to go semi-automatic against a deer. Those are for people. Handguns, in the general sense, are not sufficiently accurate for hunting and are valued for concealability and close-quarters combat. I don't believe the general population needs guns designed for use against people.

I know that criteria doesn't eliminate gun crime. The wacko up in the clocktower will be using a hunting rifle, not an AR. But it would cut down on some crime, and possibly lessen the effect. Would as many people have died in Newton if the killer had to re-cycle and re-aim the weapon after each shot?
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Nooska » Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:38 pm

10 incidents over 2 years in a country thats 1/6th the worlds population, seem to indicate the other way from what you are trying to infer- thats, downscaled to US size, would be 2 incidents since 2010 - total.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:47 pm

Well clearly guns contribute, they aren't the cause, but they are an extremely effective tool and that can not be denied.

Handguns are used regularly for hunting, a lot of folks carry both. It's a lot easier to wield in tight situations, in the brush, disabled folks etc and is plenty accurate at those ranges. Hunting rifles are not single shot, they need to be actioned (pump, lever, bolt) to shoot again. That would certainly matter in a combat situation, but it means a lot less, a lot less in a room full of 6 year olds. Just keep slamming in clips and you're still firing at fast rate, sadly I don't think the death toll would be any different at all. Also, hunting rifles are often of considerably higher caliber, so require less shots for mortal wounds on average.

That said, I don't have a problem with limiting access to semi automatic rifles. Unless you can get the existing guns off the street though, there's no way I could support a ban on handguns. That's really where the problems of gun control exists, unless you are going to do the nearly impossible (and potentially unconstitutional) task of confiscating everyone's existing guns, it will not have a large affect.

Aside from the culture issue, you could perhaps attack the issue with technological safety advancements and require their use by law. Even fund their implementation with tax dollars. I don't really see another way, banning and restricting just don't seem viable.

Boyfriend, I agree with that. If I remember right, the majority of homicides by gun are suicides.
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Re: Politics (formerly Election 2012)

Postby Shoju » Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:54 pm

Koatanga wrote:Comparing statistics from a country of over a billion to one a quarter of the size... Seems legit.


Sort of like the mass movement recently to compare the violence in America to countries like UK, Sweden, Germany and the like. I'm not saying it's perfect. But I am saying that it shows that just outright banning guns, is not going to solve the problem. Instead of statistically trying to correlate the data, you should be looking at the underlying connection that China, and the US share. A horrid, abysmal, attitude towards Mental Health Care.

It also, completely discounts the rest of my post. You know, the part where I'm saying that mass violence is mass violence, and that for the people involved in the crime, they aren't going to feel better because they were stabbed, or beat with a hammer instead of shot.

EDIT: Nooska, If we want to correlate data, we should also then look at USA VS Norway over the same amount of time, and find out how many more acts of mass violence per capita they have had. Their population is just under 5,000,000, roughly 1.6% of the US population. This is why my post wasn't about correlating data, but talking about how even without guns, China is still experiencing mass violence, and making the correlation to Mental Health Care.

Guns are far more efficient weapons for killing people than knives are. Hence the transition from swords and bows to firearms for armed combat. Take the numbers and multiply them if guns were involved.


I never argued differently.

The murder rate in the US is around 4x higher than the norm for western countries, being around 4.2 per 1000 deaths as opposed to around 1 per 1000. That may be due to other factors than the availability of guns, but one has to wonder what is in the water over there if the availability of guns is not at all a factor.


I agree. It's higher. It's a good deal higher. It's a problem. And I've never said anything to the contrary. Specifically considering that some countries, have very lax gun laws, yet have very low gun crime. I think, it speaks to what I talked about 2 posts (last page) back. Culture. Specifically, America's bloody love of violence.

If guns are a contributing factor, well, maybe that's something worth looking at.


I agree. There are things that we should do. But I don't believe that Gun Control is going to reign in mass acts of violence. At least not completely. and not on its own. Any Gun Control that does come out of the tragedies of 2012 needs to go hand in hand with increasing the Mental Health Care that is readily available to citizens.

From my standpoint, I am happy with people owning hunting rifles and shotguns. Hunting rifles being accurate single-fire weapons designed for sport use are alright because hunting is a legitimate sport and has traditionally been a necessity for food and could be so again in the event of some catastrophe. I'm OK with shotguns for bird hunting and personal defense. The shotgun is the most-feared close-quarters weapon out there, so is ideal for home defense.

I'm not OK with handguns and assault rifles. No one needs to go semi-automatic against a deer. Those are for people. Handguns, in the general sense, are not sufficiently accurate for hunting and are valued for concealability and close-quarters combat. I don't believe the general population needs guns designed for use against people.


And this is where I get a little shitty, and irritated. The above quote to me is not accurate, and displays either a deliberate bias to prove a point, or an ignorance to the use of firearms. Based on comments later in your post, I'm guessing it's the latter.

I guess I should stop hunting with my Handgun. It's not sufficiently accurate. I'll remember that the next time I decide that I'm going to go small game hunting. Yep... Handgun. Not sufficiently accurate. Only valued for concealability and for use in close quarters combat. The only type of hunting that matters is for deer anyway. Hell, I guess we should all sell bows and crossbows as well. Since, Guns are far more efficient at killing. What's the point of using a bow?

I'll also remember that when I go fishing. Nope. Don't need that handgun. I'll deal with the snakes, coyote, and occasional bobcat with... a stick. Surely, I want to get close enough to them that I can poke at them with a stick.... Or take my rifle / Shotgun with me every time I go fishing in the wilderness. Yep. No need for something smaller, that's handled the job just fine for 18 years. Nope. I'll take my .12ga with me when I go fishing. I'm sure that wont have any repercussions.

I know that criteria doesn't eliminate gun crime. The wacko up in the clocktower will be using a hunting rifle, not an AR. But it would cut down on some crime, and possibly lessen the effect. Would as many people have died in Newton if the killer had to re-cycle and re-aim the weapon after each shot?


I guess I'm missing something here. Do you believe that all high powered non assault rifles are single shot, non semi auto? That there is no hunting rifle that is semi auto?

Is my .22 Hunting Rifle an assault rifle to you?
Image

Because, from what I'm reading, you'd classify this as an assault rifle, since it's Semi Automatic.

What about my dad's Shotgun? Is this an Assault Weapon to you?
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This is the gun I bagged my first Deer with. Also. Semi Auto


What about this? This is a hunting rifle. While not semi auto, you never stop aiming to charge the weapon.
Image


And this? High Powered Rifle, a hunting Rifle. Also, Semi Automatic.
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People think that the only things that are Semi Automatic are either assault weapons, or Handguns. This just isn't the case. People have been hunting with realistic, semi automatic weaponry for over a century. The next to last picture, is one of the most iconic, most celebrated, rifles in the history of the WORLD. It was the weapon of choice during multiple Wars in the 19th cenutry, with settlers moving west, and with men who were, and are, hunting to put food on the table for their families.

Semi Auto is NOT the problem, and the idea that all semi auto weapons are the problem is a fallacy. One of the real problems, is magazine capacity, and the lax gun laws in some states (Louisiana, and Texas spring to mind) that allow normal citizens to own AUTOMATIC weapons, with a license.

For magazine capacity,
The first gun I listed is a .22 caliber Rifle. 5 round capacity
The second gun I listed, is a semi automatic Browning .12 gauge shotgun. Normally, 3-5 round capacity. Even Pump shotguns are rarely more than 5 round capacity.
The next gun I listed, is 30/30 Winchester. Most hold 5-7, plus 1 in the chamber.
The final gun I listed, is a .30-06 (30 ot 6), and normally holds 5 shots.

Would as many people have died in Newtown had he had to re-cycle and re-aim his weapon? Well... Well, if he were using a shotgun? Yes. I'm willing to wager that even more people would have died had he gone in there with a Pump Action 12ga Shotgun. The destructive force of a shotgun of that gauge in an enclosed area like a schoolroom would have been catastrophic. Instead of aiming at people, he would have had to just vaguely point. Once you have been hit, you are a far slower moving target and the spray pattern can be intense. as grisly as that is, it's the truth.
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