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Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notice.

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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Thalia » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:17 pm

Fivelives wrote:
Kelaan wrote:
Fivelives wrote:It's easy to think that we could deal with the cartels in the same way we dealt with the mafia at the end of prohibition... but the problem is simple. We can't.

Why not?


Because they're not the same. I don't really know how better to put it than this: if a mafioso gets arrested, they go to trial. If the mafia can't bribe or intimidate the witnesses and/or jurors, or just can't be bothered to, then the mafioso goes to jail. If a cartel member gets arrested, a police station gets blown up just to make a fucking point. Cartels don't give a shit about collateral damage, or killing innocents in simple random acts of violence. How long do you think public servants would be able to last when faced with that kind of brutality? If you're a police officer, and you see a cartel member breaking the law, you have to think to yourself "If I arrest that person, not just me, but everyone I know is going to die because of it".

That's why we can't deal with the cartels the same way we deal with the mafia.


Your know there are a lot of towns in Mexico who no longer have police stations because ever single police officer has quit out of fear ... really no cops in the towns.

Also, this one town in Mexico, forgot the name, got so fed up with the violence they LITERALLY built a moat around their town, so people can't just force their way in. Things like this and the mataZetas IMO shows that it's reached uber critical stage when it comes to the faith normal people have in their government now in Mexico.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Klaudandus » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:32 pm

They killed the police chief of Nuevo Laredo within 8 hrs of taking office...
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Fivelives » Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:47 pm

Fridmarr wrote:They may gain pockets here and there, but they'd constantly be fighting a losing battle.


My point is that if we legalize drugs in the US, it wouldn't just be "pockets" of cartel activity. They'd come over in force, and that's the whole problem. We can't even eliminate gang violence in our inner cities, yet people persist in believing that we'd be able to handle what basically amounts to a full scale terrorist invasion.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Fridmarr » Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:34 pm

Fivelives wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:They may gain pockets here and there, but they'd constantly be fighting a losing battle.


My point is that if we legalize drugs in the US, it wouldn't just be "pockets" of cartel activity. They'd come over in force, and that's the whole problem. We can't even eliminate gang violence in our inner cities, yet people persist in believing that we'd be able to handle what basically amounts to a full scale terrorist invasion.

I get your point, I just think you're wrong. They flourish in part because it's illegal, and they grew amongst the corruption.

The day drugs becomes legal a huge source of their funding instantly dries up. They may try to invade us and stamp out the competition, but the scale of such an operation is way beyond their capability in my opinion.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby alayire » Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:18 am

legalization won't eradicate crime. you people are overdreamy about this.
first of all, you guys fail to see the most important aspect of legalization. It has to be regulated, just like alcohol and tobacco, meaning it has to be taxed. Taxation artificially inflates prices and it has to because if it's too cheap everyone would use it(witch lets face it, regardless of what people say it's bad). If the prices are too high then people will start to look for cheaper resources which are counterfeit.
this is happening right now with alcohol and ciggars all over the world. It's legal but there's still illegal profits to be made.
this is why people would buy black market stuff over legally sold stuff, most people can't afford it.

second of all comparing the mafia with the drug cartels doesn't work. first of all, the cartels export the stuff. sure they might have some "homeland" income, but the bulk of their profit is from distributing in other countries. the mafia distributed their stuff on their own territory. which meant they had to be weary of the people on their territory, while the cartels do not. also the mafia customers were also high officials, people with lots of money and influence. it was way easier for the mob to bribe someone, because people were more susceptible of accepting and drinking alcohol thus making it easier to coerce someone with using less money. the same cannot be said about drugs though because most people simply won't have anything to do with it. just ask yourself how many people would drink a glass of wine and how many would smoke a joint. then ask yourself how many would repeat that.
this is why cartels are so brutal and violent. they can't easily bribe people using their own product(which for them is a cheap resource). as such they have to either use money, or violence with the latter being almost free.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Skye1013 » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:14 am

Kelaan wrote:...I have NO problem with legalizing using it, and cracking down just as hard on public intoxication...

Do we have a relatively cheap/effective method for determining if someone is high? I'm curious what level of BMC (Blood Marijuana Content) is considered public intoxication...


For the record, I could care less either way if it became legal. I'd likely still be unable to smoke it as long as I'm in the military (not that I'd want to anyway.)
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby degre » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:44 am

alayire wrote:legalization won't eradicate crime. you people are overdreamy about this.

I don't think anyone here was so naive to make that claim, however is a fact that reducing the quantities they sell as most of the market becomes legit, on top of having to lower the prices to be competitive, would greatly reduce their incomes.

One of the reasons they can hire so many people is because they make so much money that is profitable, cut the profits, hit them in their pockets and you'll see that they won't be able to move as freely.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Nov 03, 2011 6:57 am

alayire wrote:legalization won't eradicate crime. you people are overdreamy about this.
first of all, you guys fail to see the most important aspect of legalization. It has to be regulated, just like alcohol and tobacco, meaning it has to be taxed. Taxation artificially inflates prices and it has to because if it's too cheap everyone would use it(witch lets face it, regardless of what people say it's bad). If the prices are too high then people will start to look for cheaper resources which are counterfeit.
this is happening right now with alcohol and ciggars all over the world. It's legal but there's still illegal profits to be made.
this is why people would buy black market stuff over legally sold stuff, most people can't afford it.
No one is failing to see that it would be regulated, that's generally one of the better points for legalizing it. The point of a tax is not to stop everyone from using it, and a typical tax rate isn't large enough to have that dramatic of an effect on overall usage rates. That may be different in other parts of the world because of economic conditions, but in the US that won't be a big driver for a black market. For example we don't have a substantial black market for alcohol or cigars that you can get from a store, what does exist is generally around what the stores can't/won't provide.

Legalization certainly cuts the crime level around drugs significantly because at the moment every interaction with drugs is illegal at some level. Once legalized, a huge chunk of those transactions will be legal, but you are right that a lot more people will be getting high more often, and that is not a good thing.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:00 am

I don't know... never really been interested in drugs, and even if legalized, I don't think I would try them.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Gab » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:06 am

Fridmarr wrote:All of that is, frankly, irrelvent. Again, I'm not arguing for/against legalization. I'm saying that comparing them to alcohol, which is far more often than not used with no intent or any noticeable effects of drunkeness, is a bad comparison. That usage does not exist for drugs, no one smokes a joint to not feel something from it. I think it detracts from the much more reasoned arguments, and gets you bogged down in a losing tangent. You end up saying silly stuff like "sounds like a drug to me"... If you are falling back to that, you have no chance.


Fair enough. But consider the definition of a drug:

"something and often an illegal substance that causes addiction, habituation, or a marked change in consciousness"

Alcohol can cause addicition, habituation and a marked change in consciousness. Although you are correct that it is easier to not become intoxicated when consuming alcohol. That does not mean that alcohol isn't abused and consumed with the goal of becoming intoxicated.

Fivelives wrote:It's competition. Cartels drive out all other competitors in their area of operations. If they were to move into the US in force, they wouldn't just price their competitors out of business, like Walmart does, they'd just kill them. And just like above, how long do you think the competition would last if they had to hide from the cartels?


I seriously doubt the cartels could effectively "move into the US in force" without a serious military reaction from the US government. We might not be doing much to help Mexico, but I can guarantee if we were invaded by the cartels we would take action. If we were to legalize the cartels would be hobbled as Fridmarr has also pointed out.

alayire wrote:legalization won't eradicate crime. you people are overdreamy about this.
first of all, you guys fail to see the most important aspect of legalization. It has to be regulated, just like alcohol and tobacco, meaning it has to be taxed. Taxation artificially inflates prices and it has to because if it's too cheap everyone would use it(witch lets face it, regardless of what people say it's bad). If the prices are too high then people will start to look for cheaper resources which are counterfeit.
this is happening right now with alcohol and ciggars all over the world. It's legal but there's still illegal profits to be made.
this is why people would buy black market stuff over legally sold stuff, most people can't afford it.


Going to have to agree with Degre and Fridmarr. No one has said that legalization would eradicate crime, it would however almost certainly decrease crimes associated with drug use and would elminate the need for prosecution, incarceration and enforcement of NON VIOLENT criminals.

How wide spread is bootlegging of cigars and alcohol? There can't be much of a market for this because alcohol in most countries of the world is legal and easy to obtain. Also legal drugs costing so much that people turn to the black market just does not make sense. Look at alcohol and tobacco, sure the taxes are high but most people can afford them and don't turn to some kind of black market.

Skye1013 wrote:Do we have a relatively cheap/effective method for determining if someone is high? I'm curious what level of BMC (Blood Marijuana Content) is considered public intoxication...


I know that swab tests have been developed and used to identify illicit drug content in a person. Pretty sure there is no real indicator how intoxicated a person actual is. It only checks to see what illicit drugs are present. Although just as with alcohol many times a person is arrested for intoxication it is based on observation not on BAC alone. If someone is disturbing the peace a swab test could be applied and the person arrested accordingly.

Fridmarr wrote:Legalization certainly cuts the crime level around drugs significantly because at the moment every interaction with drugs is illegal at some level. Once legalized, a huge chunk of those transactions will be legal, but you are right that a lot more people will be getting high more often, and that is not a good thing.


Are you saying that people who would otherwise not be using would start just because it was legalized? I'm sure there might be a few, but I really don't think everyone is going to rush to the store to buy a nice big bag of heroin. A drug user already knows where to get illegal drugs under the current system and will usually resort to any means necessary to get a fix including violence. If drugs were legalized a person isn't necessarily going to be getting high more often, it will just be less of a "burden" for the drugs to be obtained.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:26 am

Gab wrote:Fair enough. But consider the definition of a drug:

"something and often an illegal substance that causes addiction, habituation, or a marked change in consciousness"

Alcohol can cause addicition, habituation and a marked change in consciousness. Although you are correct that it is easier to not become intoxicated when consuming alcohol. That does not mean that alcohol isn't abused and consumed with the goal of becoming intoxicated.
Again that's missing the point, and an ultimately flawed argument that is unnecessary. There are literally countless things that are just as dangerous as pot (and other drugs) that are perfectly legal because they have other reasonable purposes. You are actually putting yourself in a position of suggesting that getting high/drunk is "abuse" of the substance and therefore the only reasonable use of drugs is to "abuse" them which only hurts your case.

Gab wrote:Are you saying that people who would otherwise not be using would start just because it was legalized? I'm sure there might be a few, but I really don't think everyone is going to rush to the store to buy a nice big bag of heroin. A drug user already knows where to get illegal drugs under the current system and will usually resort to any means necessary to get a fix including violence. If drugs were legalized a person isn't necessarily going to be getting high more often, it will just be less of a "burden" for the drugs to be obtained.

Yes, it will happen. There are plenty of people who don't use drugs, or use them far less often than they otherwise would because the risks involved are too great, and most of those risks exist because of the legal status. I don't think anyone going go run out and buy some meth, but a drug like pot will see it's usage increase significantly over time.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Gab » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:42 am

Fridmarr wrote:Again that's missing the point, and an ultimately flawed argument that is unnecessary. There are literally countless things that are just as dangerous as pot (and other drugs) that are perfectly legal because they have other reasonable purposes. You are actually putting yourself in a position of suggesting that getting high/drunk is "abuse" of the substance and therefore the only reasonable use of drugs is to "abuse" them which only hurts your case.


If I came across as if I were suggesting that the consumption of drugs or alcohol with the intent of being intoxicated was abuse than I apologize. Initially I was just trying to draw comparisons of ending prohibition to legalization of illicit drugs. Because in my mind they are very similar and a precedence was set with the ending of prohibition.

Regarding Schedule 1 drugs which includes Marijuana,taken from the DEA's website:

Substances in this schedule have a high potential for abuse, have no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States, and there is a lack of accepted safety for use of the drug or other substance under medical supervision.


You say other dangerous things are legal because they have other reasonable purposes. Because of the classification of schedule 1 drugs little to no research and development is allowed and therefore we are unable to understand the full potential of some these substances. Ecstasy or MDMA is under this scheduling and was originally used to treat PTSD and aid in different types of therapies. Marijuana has obvious reasonable purposes as well. I don't understand how they can classify these drugs in this way when it is obvious there are some reasonable purposes for the drugs, especially considering some were at a one point in time considered medically accepted. It isn't fair to dismiss these drugs as having no other reasonable purpose.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:55 am

I'll just post this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compassion ... ug_program


Also, I'd say of all the drugs the cartel handles, marijuana is not the one that gives them the most profit. And if the profit from drugs is cut from the cartels, they will move to something else. They already have a very sophisticated network dedicated to racketeering, media piracy and kidnapping, and rumors they actually control some refineries in certain cities, specially Gigante-1 in Tamaulipas.

Yeah, they would be severely affected if the drug profits are cut, but they would just brute force themselves somewhere else.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Belloc » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:02 am

If drugs were only allowed to be sold from licensed dealers (shops) and you were required to retain your receipt/slip/prescription/whatever while carrying, that would separate the legally sold drugs from the illegally sold drugs. If the prices remained competitive, illegal drug purchases would go down and there would be no reason for cartels to move in.


Personally, I think that the cartels should be exterminated with extreme prejudice. They're nothing but worthless pieces of shit and I am very disappointed that Anonymous backed off. I'd have be thrilled to see drug cartels taking each other out.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Klaudandus » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:08 am

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2395812,00.asp
Apparently, only a fraction of anonymous backed down, but OpCartel is still planned to proceed.


I don't agree on your take that drug cartels will simply just give up though. Organized Crime is not just about moving drugs, but also firearms, racketeering, kidnapping, piracy. Just because you whither one head, does not mean they cannot try to recover by going harder after other forms of crime.

Completely agree that they're scum and should be dealt with as such. And while I kind of glad for Zetakillers, I wonder if this will end up being a case of pigeons getting eaten by lizards, lizards then getting eaten by snakes and then you send in the snake-eating gorillas and hope they die in winter...
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