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Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notice.

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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:08 pm

cerwillis wrote:At this point, it is not fair to argue for prohibition by listing the harmful effects of illegal drugs. Prescription drugs kill more people than cocaine and heroin COMBINED, Source 1 and if the 'drugs are harmful, therefore they should be illegal' argument holds water, then it would be logical to argue that automobiles should also be illegal. They kill far more people, including bystanders that choose not to drive. It is impossible to do permanent damage with marijuana in it's standard form. If you could possibly smoke enough to kill yourself, you would die from Carbon Monoxide poisoning.

But the reverse is also true, those items are legal because society has deemed the benefits are worth the costs, socially and otherwise. So saying a particular recreational drug is safer than some other legal thing, is meaningless in the context of that drug's legality.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby cerwillis » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:44 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
cerwillis wrote:At this point, it is not fair to argue for prohibition by listing the harmful effects of illegal drugs. Prescription drugs kill more people than cocaine and heroin COMBINED, Source 1 and if the 'drugs are harmful, therefore they should be illegal' argument holds water, then it would be logical to argue that automobiles should also be illegal. They kill far more people, including bystanders that choose not to drive. It is impossible to do permanent damage with marijuana in it's standard form. If you could possibly smoke enough to kill yourself, you would die from Carbon Monoxide poisoning.

But the reverse is also true, those items are legal because society has deemed the benefits are worth the costs, socially and otherwise. So saying a particular recreational drug is safer than some other legal thing, is meaningless in the context of that drug's legality.

In the case of pot, it is illegal because some people don't like it and don't like people that use it. That alone is not a good reason to prohibit something, certainly not at the present cost of doing so.

Pot affects people in different ways. To paraphrase Bill Maher, "Some people get tired and stupid on it. Some people get awake and creative." The general impression is that potheads are lazy idiots, but I would list people like Carl Sagan, William Shakespeare, Paul McCartney, Ricky Williams (Heisman Trophy) and Richard Branson as people that use(d) and are highly successful in their fields, and I would rather be in their company than some politician that is afraid of what will happen if people are given the right that already belongs to us anyhow.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:56 pm

cerwillis wrote:In the case of pot, it is illegal because some people don't like it and don't like people that use it. That alone is not a good reason to prohibit something, certainly not at the present cost of doing so.
That's not at all accurate. Pot is illegal because society hasn't felt compelled to make it legal, and you won't achieve that by pointing to one of the millions of things that are "worse" than pot. Talk about the benefits of legalization and correct the misinformation about the perceived negatives, but trying to frame it as logic war by by pointing out "double standards" is missing the point, and will never be successful.

cerwillis wrote:Pot affects people in different ways. To paraphrase Bill Maher, "Some people get tired and stupid on it. Some people get awake and creative." The general impression is that potheads are lazy idiots, but I would list people like Carl Sagan, William Shakespeare, Paul McCartney, Ricky Williams (Heisman Trophy) and Richard Branson as people that use(d) and are highly successful in their fields
That may be entirely correct, but it doesn't matter in the slightest.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby cerwillis » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:02 pm

The burden of proof should not be on the person that wants their rights back, it should be on the government that is trying to take them away.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Skye1013 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:02 am

Not to take this on another alcohol related tangent, but what was said about the illegality of things making them more enticing has some merit.

Honestly, I think people (in the US) would be able to handle themselves more if:

1) The legal drinking age wasn't 21. Most people are no longer living with their parents, and those that still are, aren't typically under any strict "ruleset" given by those parents regarding drinking responsibly.

2) If the legal limit was lowered to say... 14-16, then parents would be able to help regulate the amount of alcohol consumed, which would teach more kids to be responsible. Yes, rebellious teenagers trying to undermine their parents authority will use illegal things like alcohol/cigarettes to do so. If it's not illegal... it suddenly loses a lot of it's appeal.

Obviously this isn't a perfect solution, but realistically, nothing ever will be.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Tev » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:34 am

The issue with my brother is that he is fine until his friends get involved, then he falls off the wagon, so to speak. The jail time ironically isn't due directly to the drug use, but because of the things he does while under its influence (mostly driving under the influence, but some other stupid stuff as well).

In terms of pot safety, it is many times more carcenogenic than a cigarette, and destroys the immune system. What is worse is that it can interact with other drugs in bad ways, for instance with coccaine, it can cause heart failure. (information cited in my previous posts link).

The main issue most people have with drugs isn't specifically what you do in the privacy of your own home, but what happens when you are out in the public under the influence of such things. To manage the legalization of such things would mean even more complex laws and procedures (what is the legal blood/THC content, how do you humanely test these levels, how is it all funded). The problem I see, especially with alcohol around where I live, is the more you use it, the more you have to use it and the less aware you are of how much you are using. This has a lot to do with the compounding of the addiction and judgement imparing aspects of alcohol and many drugs. (These deductions are my own based on experience and observations)

Quantity control is a very real issue with most people, how many times have you had to take an asprin or other pain killer, read the bottle, and went over when the recommended dose was because 'you really hurt now'. People have developed this mentality that they are right, not their doctor, not the company that doesn't want to get sued by someone overdosing on their product, nor anyone who doesn't agree with them.

One thing to consider in regards to the whole Zetas issue; if you were going to impliment something that would effectively cut off the majority of their income... do you think they would disappear quietly?
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby degre » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:37 am

Tev wrote:Please don't site studies that don't include a source.

If you want a good study, here are a few tidbits. (taken from http://www.sarnia.com/groups/antidrug/a ... myths.html)
From 1919 to 1922, government-sponsored clinics handed out free drugs to addicts in hopes of controlling their behavior, and it failed. [source: Jill Jonnes, "Forgotten History of Legal Drugs," The Baltimore Sun 16 February 1995.]

California decriminalized marijuana in 1976, and, within the first six months, arrests for driving under the influence of drugs rose 46 percent for adults and 71.4 percent for juveniles.[Peggy Mann, Reasons to Oppose Legalizing Illegal Drugs (Danvers: Committee of Correspondence, Inc., September, 1988)]

Decriminalizing marijuana in Alaska and Oregon in the 1970s resulted in the doubling of use.[Wayne J. Roques, "Decriminalizing Drugs Would Be A Disaster," The Miami Herald 20 January 1995]

Patrick Murphy, a court-appointed lawyer for 31,000 abused and neglected children in Chicago, says that more than 80 percent of the cases of physical and sexual abuse of children now involve drugs. There is no evidence that legalizing drugs will reduce these crimes, and there is evidence that suggests it would worsen the problem.[Don Feder, "Legalizers Plan Harvard Pot Party," The Boston Herald 19 May 1994]


I pulled a few notable excerpts, I think it's a really good read.

One of the reason, if the not the most important for people to start doing something is that is not permitted.


Not True. The number one reason someone gets into drugs (or anything) is peer preasure, from there the use of one drug typically leads to others. Saying that people use something because it isn't permitted sounds like a rebellious teenager, not your typical adult.

Legalizing something will make the use go up, there is no reason it wouldn't. People use drugs for enjoyment, coping, and to satify addiction. Since most of these drugs impare judgement in some fashion, it becomes very easy to use them in excess without a 3rd party to prevent that.

In the end, if people aren't responsible enough to safely handle Pot, then I cannot support legalizing it. When I read in the local paper about someone getting nailed with his 16th OWI (from alcohol, which is legal), this time from a fatal accident, I realize that people in general don't have the self control needed to make these practices acceptable.

My family has been fighting hard to help my brother with his problem, and every time he starts doing good, one of his so called friends drags him down, and we usually end up having to bail him out of jail. It really hurts to see people so blinded by their desire to legalize drugs so they can use whenever they want, that they will ignore the truth and facts. It's so easy to be on the side od drugs when you haven't seen first hand the harm they can do.

I am sorry to hear about your brother, but in a way is not nice what you do there using your brother to make your point.

As someone already pointed out, if drugs were legalised you would not be bailing your brother out of jail, you might pick him up at the hospital and he'll be probably be better off. Also don't assume that what happened to you has not happened to others, people might have gone through worse, I know I did, I have lost friends and family for issues linked to alcohol and drug abuse, I just don't really like to talk about it.

It is also worth noticing that not everyone that is in favour of legalising wish it so for use. I am a moderate alcohol consumer (ok, I do occasionally get smashed, but sometimes can be fun), I used to smoke some pot back in the days and I haven't made any regular use since I left Turkey in '98. I actually complain as I find modern days pot to be too strong and I don't like it, for me back then was a sociable experience, I was not smoking to get stoned out of my mind.

This said, is worth pointing out that the site you linked is not exactly a study but a collection of quotes out of context and some of those info are somehow misleading.

I am sorry to hear that in the 20s in the US such behaviour failed, might have been another time, other people, but such behaviour in Portugal is highly succsfull as linked above and is actually also highly successfull in Holland too:
http://www.dutchdailynews.com/free-heroin/

Also worth mentioning that you can't look at a liberalisation law only for the first 6months like in the case of California, people need time to adapt and change, and the European example of portugal is displaying very good effects on the long term, same as Holland.

Please also note that quite often the problem of child abuse, while quite often may involve drugs or alcohol, doesn't necessarily means that is caused by consumption. More often than note there are issues prior to the use of substances that lead into those behaviours.

On a sidenote, please, refrain from using American specific acronyms, I had to google when you mentioned a '16th OWI', I am not American, English is not even my primary language, I don't really want to have to google to understand what you are talking about.


Skye1013 wrote:Not to take this on another alcohol related tangent, but what was said about the illegality of things making them more enticing has some merit.

Honestly, I think people (in the US) would be able to handle themselves more if:

1) The legal drinking age wasn't 21. Most people are no longer living with their parents, and those that still are, aren't typically under any strict "ruleset" given by those parents regarding drinking responsibly.

2) If the legal limit was lowered to say... 14-16, then parents would be able to help regulate the amount of alcohol consumed, which would teach more kids to be responsible. Yes, rebellious teenagers trying to undermine their parents authority will use illegal things like alcohol/cigarettes to do so. If it's not illegal... it suddenly loses a lot of it's appeal.

Obviously this isn't a perfect solution, but realistically, nothing ever will be.

LOL! completely unrelated, but you just reminded me of a funny story a South African friend kept saying when talking about firearms and alcohol age limits in the US and always made me giggle.

Think about being able to go to your local store and beign able to buy a gun at 18, but no alcohol until 21, so you walk in:
- Hey, can I have a 6 pack?
- Sorry, you're not 21.
- Uh.. ok, can I have the gun over there?
- sure. (hands the gun over)
- (load the gun, point it at the guy) Hey, can I have a 6 pack?
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Belloc » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:27 am

Fridmarr wrote:That's not at all accurate. Pot is illegal because society hasn't felt compelled to make it legal, and you won't achieve that by pointing to one of the millions of things that are "worse" than pot.
To be fair, what you said is not at all accurate, either. Pot is illegal because the government had an anti-black, anti-mexican agenda when the issue was brought before them. Had this country not been racist, the drug would not be illegal.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby degre » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:44 am

Belloc wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:That's not at all accurate. Pot is illegal because society hasn't felt compelled to make it legal, and you won't achieve that by pointing to one of the millions of things that are "worse" than pot.
To be fair, what you said is not at all accurate, either. Pot is illegal because the government had an anti-black, anti-mexican agenda when the issue was brought before them. Had this country not been racist, the drug would not be illegal.

Uh... while would like to have pot legalised and I don't have much sympathy for the US system, I feel that this is going a tiny bit to far. I don't see what race or nationality has to do with drugs.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Gab » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:08 am

degre wrote:
Belloc wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:That's not at all accurate. Pot is illegal because society hasn't felt compelled to make it legal, and you won't achieve that by pointing to one of the millions of things that are "worse" than pot.
To be fair, what you said is not at all accurate, either. Pot is illegal because the government had an anti-black, anti-mexican agenda when the issue was brought before them. Had this country not been racist, the drug would not be illegal.

Uh... while would like to have pot legalised and I don't have much sympathy for the US system, I feel that this is going a tiny bit to far. I don't see what race or nationality has to do with drugs.


Actually Belloc is correct unfortunately. Most of the anti marijuana legislation started from Harry J. Anslinger's, the first Commissioner of the U.S. Treasury Department's Federal Bureau of Narcotics, desire to make a name for himself and he definitely pulled the race card.

Some direct quotes from this ass hat:

Harry ASSlinger wrote:"There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos, and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz, and swing, result from marijuana use. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers, and any others.”

“…the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races.”

“Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death.”

“Reefer makes darkies think they’re as good as white men.”

“Marijuana leads to pacifism and communist brainwashing”

“You smoke a joint and you’re likely to kill your brother.”

“Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind.”


Complete idiot... It's very disappointing that this man had a "successful" career as he was terribly ignorant and the epitome of a bigot.

That's not to say that Nancy Reagan, also an ass hat, or someone else wouldn't have tried to make marijuana illegal at some point though.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Tev » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:20 am

Belloc... wow. Such blanket use of racism statements like that undermind real racism and those who have to endure it (I'm refering to you calling the whole country racist). One politician with an agenda does not make the whole country racist, and I have a hard time believing that it was the primary reason most people voted against legalizing marijuana.

Degre... your implication that I'm using my brother's problem solely to make a point is insulting. Him being in the hospitol is in no way better than jail, it would mean that his problem has gotten so bad that he has completely lost control of his problem. It also means that there is a very real possibility that he is in the mourge. I would rather have a brother that is in jail than one that is dead.

As for the Site, I fail to see your point. It cites published books and studies, that while you may disagree, makes them no less valid or true. You can nitpick all you want, but it amounts to nothing when you do not provide valid counterstudies. If you actually read the article you linked and the research it pointed to, it actually refered to the use of Heroin in medical treatment as opposed to oral methadone, for use in the treatment of heroin-dependant patients. (http://www.ccbh.nl/publicaties/Blanken_ ... endent.pdf)

Finally, in regards to the use if OWI, I'm sorry I only used 1 of the 8 terms used around the globe, not just in the US, but just because you use only 1 or 2 of the following {DUI, DUII, DWI, OWI, OUI OVI, DWAI, OMVI} does not mean the others are invalid. You can blame it on the last of consistancy in any given area.

In any case I'm done with this thread, it is getting too personal for me, and I have already made my points.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Gab » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:27 am

Tev wrote:Belloc... wow. Such blanket use of racism statements like that undermind real racism and those who have to endure it (I'm refering to you calling the whole country racist). One politician with an agenda does not make the whole country racist, and I have a hard time believing that it was the primary reason most people voted against legalizing marijuana.


A vast majority of the country was racist... Segregation anyone? And after almost a hundred years of feeding people lies and misinformation about drugs, especially marijuana, it's easy to see why people voted against legalizing marijuana.

People are so closed minded...
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby cerwillis » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:29 am

Sorry to shock you with the truth Tev, but what Belloc said has a great deal of basis in fact. There was a national campaign to convince Americans that pot did nothing but make Black people and Mexicans Violent and "Sex-crazed". In the 30s and 40s, they didn't have the internet to fact check, so it was sadly effective. It may be hard to believe, but there you go.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0214730/ is a very interesting documentary about the subject.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby degre » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:28 pm

Gab wrote:Actually Belloc is correct unfortunately.

To be fair comes a bit as a shock, I'm not really used to that this side of the pond, but many thanks for the info provided and my apologies to Belloc.



Tev wrote:Degre... your implication that I'm using my brother's problem solely to make a point is insulting. Him being in the hospitol is in no way better than jail, it would mean that his problem has gotten so bad that he has completely lost control of his problem. It also means that there is a very real possibility that he is in the mourge. I would rather have a brother that is in jail than one that is dead.

As for the Site, I fail to see your point. It cites published books and studies, that while you may disagree, makes them no less valid or true. You can nitpick all you want, but it amounts to nothing when you do not provide valid counterstudies. If you actually read the article you linked and the research it pointed to, it actually refered to the use of Heroin in medical treatment as opposed to oral methadone, for use in the treatment of heroin-dependant patients. (http://www.ccbh.nl/publicaties/Blanken_ ... endent.pdf)

Finally, in regards to the use if OWI, I'm sorry I only used 1 of the 8 terms used around the globe, not just in the US, but just because you use only 1 or 2 of the following {DUI, DUII, DWI, OWI, OUI OVI, DWAI, OMVI} does not mean the others are invalid. You can blame it on the last of consistancy in any given area.

In any case I'm done with this thread, it is getting too personal for me, and I have already made my points.

Sorry Tev, but you made it personal quoting your own experience with your brother to make a point, don't blame us for your own doing. DO i need to make a list of all the people I know smoking pot that never had any issue? But talking out of a single person example doesn't really make a point.

As for the link provided by me and the other provided by others about Portugal, they simply point into the direction opposite to many things reported in the link you provided, one clear example I've brought was the Californian one, how you can even consider valid the result of law on the mere observation of the first 6 months? Are they serious? And while you mention failed experiments done in other years and of which we don't know much, there are instead countries that today are doing so and publishing positive results, sorry if I find them more reliable.

Last, about OWI, seems like you didn't appreciate my remark, however I stand by my words, and I politely asked you to refrain from using acronyms and just use the full words in order to make our life easier, all those acronyms are probably in use around English speaking countries, and while here we all speak English, some of us are not from an English speaking country, I'm Italian myself, English is not my mothertongue and I might not be familiar with acronyms spawned from American legislation, I'm hardly familiar with the British ones and I've been living for over 6 years... non English speakers quite often don't use acronyms as much as English do and tend to refer to something using the full spelling. Sorry if I have asked you to be considerate to others.
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Re: Anonymous vs Zetas Cartel, rest of alphabet put on notic

Postby Belloc » Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:40 pm

degre wrote:
Gab wrote:Actually Belloc is correct unfortunately.

To be fair comes a bit as a shock, I'm not really used to that this side of the pond, but many thanks for the info provided and my apologies to Belloc.

No worries... I tend to talk out of my ass a bit until I get called on it. This just happened to be one of the times that I got it right :P
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