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Just Gotta Say...

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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Brekkie » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:34 pm

Yes. If you are victimized by something, if you don't go to someone for help, how can you complain that no one helped you?

Clarification, before a straw man argument is made: By "report it", that includes going to confidential reporting authorities simply for personal counseling and assistance in dealing with the aftermath. I'm not saying you need to publicly identify yourself as a rape victim or necessarily go through the justice system. I'm saying you should seek help. There is no reason to not go to the many, many, many people and organizations that exist for no other purpose than to help you.

The problem I see here is that there's this culture of martyrdom from bullying and prejudice, while at the same time seemingly encouraging those same people to keep the entire thing secret and do absolutely nothing about it. And then you wonder why those individuals come out of the whole experience with issues.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby katraya » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:38 pm

I've been trying to think of a good reply all day. Unfortunately I am under the weather so the brain isn't really working.

Brekkie, I really don't know what world you're living in if you think gays/lesbians/etc have equal right nationally that straight people do. Besides the obvious marriage issue, there are adoption rights issues, housing issues and employment hurdles. Heck, your own coworkers couldn't be openly homosexual until a few weeks ago. Not to mention immigration issues for same sex couples. Have great strides been made, sure. Obviously this isn't Uganda, there is no threat of capital punishment for being gay. However, sodomy laws are still on the books in three states.

I think you're very foolish if you think it is just a scattered number of whackos who make life difficult for gay people. I wish you were right.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Flex » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:45 pm

Skye1013 wrote:
Flex wrote:
Dazhbog wrote:Bolded the part that just.... boggles my mind. Ow. No. You don't seriously believe that, do you? That if you're beaten or abused or raped or similar and don't report it (perhaps because you fear for your life if you do), that's the same as accepting the crimes are justified?


Pretty much. Why would you think so little of yourself otherwise?

I'm quoting Flex but this question applies to both him and Brekkie....

Do you feel the same way about rape victims who don't report it?


Why would I not?
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Levantine » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:46 pm

It's funny, Kat. I said exactly as much pages ago and was ignored. I knew opening this thread was a bad idea.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:47 pm

katraya wrote:However, sodomy laws are still on the books in three states.

Also in the UCMJ (Uniformed Code of Military Justice... aka Military Laws)

Edit: Upon reading the Article... apparently scissoring is ok, it's mostly gay guys that get screwed (or not, as the case may be...)
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Brekkie » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:08 pm

Adoption rights:
Fair point I suppose. But I just don't really see this as a big issue. It's just a relic of old prejudices that will eventually get fixed. And until lawmakers get around to doing so, it's hardly like anybody's civil rights are being infringed. It's a quality of life issue, I guess, but hardly something worth making a fuss about. There are plenty of other disqualifying factors towards adoption that no one is screaming prejudice over.

Housing issues:
What do you mean by this? Since when has it been illegal for two individuals of the same gender to be joint lease-holders? Sexuality doesn't even come into play at any stage. And if it did, in many cases I'm pretty sure you could sue for discrimination.
Or alternatively, though I'm not personally a libertarian, I can see the libertarian perspective of "Property owners are entitled to do whatever they want with their own private property, to include choosing exactly who and who not to lease it to. If you don't like it, buy your own land/house." THAT, actually IS a civil right.

Employment hurdles:
Again, what do you mean by this? Why would sexuality even come into play? It's not like people can tell your sexuality just by looking at you in an interview or reading your name on an application like they can with your ethnicity. I don't find arguments about employment discrimination based on race very convincing anyway, and claiming there is discrimination based on sexuality has an even weaker case still. Unless you are having sex at work (porn star?), how is it even anyone's business/relevant?

DADT:
DADT WAS the act that allowed Homosexuals to serve in the military, NOT its repeal. I've only been in for 4 years or so, in the most conservative military branch, but I've served with dozens of homosexual (never have had any idea what "openly" was supposed to mean) service members who were all completely accepted by their comrades as long as they never let their personal live negatively affect their work performance, same as any heterosexual.
A while back we had a long thread discussing DADT repeal, and my opinion then was that I opposed it because the people that wanted to serve in the military because they wanted to serve their country were ALREADY serving. The only new people who would join because of this repeal would be ones who did so to make some kind of statement, and brought with it a whole host of logistical complications that were neither helpful, nor that we had the funding to properly handle, during wartime.
The main problem with DADT was that a few bad egg religious fundie nutjobs in the officer cadre were misinterpreting the actual intent behind the law in order to justify "witch hunts", which is neither what the law was about, nor what the vast majority of the military wanted. That could have easily been correction via an executive order or a revision of the law. Instead the repeal was used as a way of scoring political points without actually changing much of anything about the way the military operates. Literally, our DADT-repeal training brief could be summed up as "Absolutely nothing has changed, except we don't let fundies get away with doing witch hunts any more."

Sodomy laws on the books:
When was the last time one of those as enforced? 1850? There are hundreds of relic laws on the books. Stuff about not having pet alligators and being able to beat your wife, but only if the cane is less than the diameter of your pinkie.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby bldavis » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:11 pm

funny, i heard about a guy getting charged with rape and sodomy the week before i moved to where my school is
so try 2011
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Levantine » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:16 pm

Brekkie wrote:Adoption rights:
Fair point I suppose. But I just don't really see this as a big issue. It's just a relic of old prejudices that will eventually get fixed. And until lawmakers get around to doing so, it's hardly like anybody's civil rights are being infringed. It's a quality of life issue, I guess, but hardly something worth making a fuss about. There are plenty of other disqualifying factors towards adoption that no one is screaming prejudice over.
"I don't think it's a big deal so I'm going to ignore the fact and brush it aside"

Brekkie wrote:Housing issues:
What do you mean by this? Since when has it been illegal for two individuals of the same gender to be joint lease-holders? Sexuality doesn't even come into play at any stage. And if it did, in many cases I'm pretty sure you could sue for discrimination.
Or alternatively, though I'm not personally a libertarian, I can see the libertarian perspective of "Property owners are entitled to do whatever they want with their own private property, to include choosing exactly who and who not to lease it to. If you don't like it, buy your own land/house." THAT, actually IS a civil right.

Nope, it's perfectly legal to be discriminated in that way in many states.

Brekkie wrote:Employment hurdles:
Again, what do you mean by this? Why would sexuality even come into play? It's not like people can tell your sexuality just by looking at you in an interview or reading your name on an application like they can with your ethnicity. I don't find arguments about employment discrimination based on race very convincing anyway, and claiming there is discrimination based on sexuality has an even weaker case still. Unless you are having sex at work (porn star?), how is it even anyone's business/relevant?
It's no one's business, but if your boss doesn't like you and finds out you're gay they have grounds for dismissal. Whether or not you're a flaming queen has nothing to do with it.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Brekkie » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:16 pm

Skye1013 wrote:
katraya wrote:However, sodomy laws are still on the books in three states.

Also in the UCMJ (Uniformed Code of Military Justice... aka Military Laws)

Edit: Upon reading the Article... apparently scissoring is ok, it's mostly gay guys that get screwed (or not, as the case may be...)


TECHNICALLY, all this article ACTUALLY prohibits is:
-Rape
-Pedophilia
-Bestiality

The "no anal/oral sex" thing is purely interpretation, and is no more biased against homosexuality than it is against heterosexuality. Straight couples also have oral and anal sex you know. That interpretation is not enforced anyway. When the fundies would do witch hunts, they'd charge the individual with violating their enlistment contract, not the UCMJ.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Brekkie » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:29 pm

Levantine wrote:"I don't think it's a big deal so I'm going to ignore the fact and brush it aside"

Pretty much. The desire to help a child in need by providing them with a stable home is laudable, and it's a shame they don't let you do it, but that's a shame for the child's sake, not yours. They wouldn't be the couple's progeny, so it's not like they are violating your human right to reproduce yourself. If the government was going out and sterilizing every homosexual, I'd agree with you that it would be a grave matter, but they aren't. They're just declining your offer to do something nice. You'll excuse me for not grabbing my pitchfork. If you like kids, there are plenty of ways to be around kids. If you want to reproduce yourself, for the ladies there are sperm banks, allowing lesbian couples to be perfectly able to raise offspring of their own, and as for the guys, well, that's an unfortunate side effect of your sexual orientation but hardly anyone else's fault for holding you down. I'm sure they will have cloning sorted out soon.


Levantine wrote:Nope, it's perfectly legal to be discriminated in that way in many states.

So how do you refute the point about people having the right to do with their own private property as they will?

Levantine wrote:It's no one's business, but if your boss doesn't like you and finds out you're gay they have grounds for dismissal. Whether or not you're a flaming queen has nothing to do with it.


The fact that the individual is homosexual is not grounds for dismissal, the fact that the individual is a shitty worker and their boss has that documented enough to fire them IS. The homosexuality is just a personal idiosyncrasy that the boss may just dislike, but nowadays no one's papers for termination state sexual orientation as the reason. It's no different than some bosses disliking you having tattoos. It might not endear you to them that you live the kind of lifestyle where you have lots of ink, but they don't fire you solely for that.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:34 pm

Not saying Article 125 doesn't also affect straight couples, but regardless of how often it's enforced, it's still on the books and CAN be enforced at any point. So it's ok to be gay, just don't get caught having sex.

And anyone who has had any sort of government course should know that the original intention of a law means nothing... it's all about the interpretation. Granted, the Supreme court cases ultimately shape interpretation, but that's only if an actual case makes it that far, and it's not always in favor of the original intent.

Brekkie wrote:The fact that the individual is homosexual is not grounds for dismissal, the fact that the individual is a shitty worker and their boss has that documented enough to fire them IS. The homosexuality is just a personal idiosyncrasy that the boss may just dislike, but nowadays no one's papers for termination state sexual orientation as the reason. It's no different than some bosses disliking you having tattoos. It might not endear you to them that you live the kind of lifestyle where you have lots of ink, but they don't fire you solely for that.

You'd be amazed at how untrue that can be. If your boss doesn't like you, they'll nitpick the shit out of stuff you do, even if they overlook the exact same thing for someone else.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby cerwillis » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:36 pm

Brekkie, you will one day wake up to find that the world is not as cut and dry as you think it is, and that people don't deserve the credit that you give them for being tolerant. You will only be able to learn this from experience, nothing that we can say will prove it to you.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Flex » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:37 pm

Levantine wrote:It's no one's business, but if your boss doesn't like you and finds out you're gay they have grounds for dismissal. Whether or not you're a flaming queen has nothing to do with it.


The "Employment-at-Will" rules that allow you to quit a job at any moment are the same ones that allows an employer to fire you at any moment. So they don't even have to find out you're gay to be fired, they simply have to not like you. Though some laws have made it easier for employees to retain jobs in this manner. In Montana you can't be fired outside of "good cause" after completing a probationary period however they have no explicit sexual orientation anti-discrimination laws that is sufficient legal protection.

For instance here are the things you can not be fired by a private business for in Maryland

• Age
• Ancestry or national origin
• Disability: physical or mental
• Gender
• Marital status
• Pregnancy, childbirth, and related medical conditions
• Race or color
• Religion or creed
• Sexual orientation
• Genetic testing information

But if your boss doesn't like you, even if you're performing a great job, he can fire you.

Of course we could go back to classifying homosexuality as a mental illness and everyone would be protected...
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Brekkie » Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:07 pm

cerwillis wrote:Brekkie, you will one day wake up to find that the world is not as cut and dry as you think it is, and that people don't deserve the credit that you give them for being tolerant. You will only be able to learn this from experience, nothing that we can say will prove it to you.


Yesterday I was walking through the streets of the Arab city in which I work. I saw a black form crawling on the ground, and walked over the investigate. It was a middle-aged woman wearing the full black Abaya and Hijab required by Sharia law. She had no legs below the knee. She had to crawl along the sidewalk everywhere she went, and the front of her enveloping black garment was ragged and dirty. My driver/interpreter explained that her legs had been chopped off for running away from her husband, which would have been an arranged marriage, likely when she was a little girl age 11 or 12, and was now a beggar because she would have been cast out by her family following that.

I could not talk to her, not only because of the language barrier, but because the Mutawa Religious Police would beat and arrest her if she was seen interacting with an unmarried male, particularly a westerner. So I took all the money I had in my wallet placed it down on the sidewalk ahead of where she was crawling, and walked away.

Tell me again how little I know about the world, when statistically you probably have never even left the state you live in, let alone America?
It's been precisely my life experiences which make me now struggle to take seriously an argument which essentially boils down to "all my rights are protected and I am free to live however I want, other people be damned, but my life is hard because people hurt my feelings when I was in high school".
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Belloc » Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:20 pm

bldavis wrote:funny, i heard about a guy getting charged with rape and sodomy the week before i moved to where my school is
so try 2011

Off-topic, but:
Rape and sodomy.

When was the last time you heard of consenting adults being charged with Sodomy?
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