Just Gotta Say...

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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Flex » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:47 am

Dazhbog wrote:Bolded the part that just.... boggles my mind. Ow. No. You don't seriously believe that, do you? That if you're beaten or abused or raped or similar and don't report it (perhaps because you fear for your life if you do), that's the same as accepting the crimes are justified?


Pretty much. Why would you think so little of yourself otherwise?

And "non-straight" can't be removed without removing the motive for the crimes in the first place. People just aren't attacked for being straight, for the most part; there are other motives involved. This doesn't justify the crimes, of course, but it's a far cry from mugging someone to assaulting them simply because of their sexual preferences.


It more points out that being a victim of a crime because you're gay isn't any more special than being a victim of a crime for being Indian or a Giants fan in Los Angeles.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby cerwillis » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:48 am

Frank Kameny was fired from his job as a NASA astronomer in 1957 for being gay. He then worked tirelessly for over 50 years to prevent that sort of thing happening to others. Whether or not the situation in the states is better, (it is, but 'equality' is still far off,) he still deserves respect for being a great American. Not all heroes earn their cred in a foxhole. At some point, he stood up and said, "I'm going to be myself, and fuck anyone that has a problem with it!" In a time when termination, harassment and violence was certainly a possibility.

As far as marriage goes, civil unions are not equality. They are by definition a way to define gay people as different and less than equal.

I'm glad that you guys don't have to understand freedom to defend it.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Brekkie » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:56 am

There is NEVER "nothing you can do about it". EVER. Claiming that is cowardice.

And for every one individual anecdote about a homosexual kid locked in a closet, you can counter with a thousand anecdotes of homosexuals who grew up just fine living perfectly happy lives. All you are demonstrating is that, in a population of 303 million people, yes, there are a few crazies. But a few crazies do not make a pervasive trend.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby cerwillis » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:01 am

I know a lot of gay people, and I don't know a single one that grew up having a "perfectly happy life". Just imagine for a second growing up knowing that there is something different about you, that society considers "wrong", and you can't tell even your best friend or your MOTHER about it without fear of rejection. Again, complete lack of perspective here, so I think I'll grab some /popcorn after this post.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Brekkie » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:03 am

cerwillis wrote:Frank Kameny was fired from his job as a NASA astronomer in 1957 for being gay. He then worked tirelessly for over 50 years to prevent that sort of thing happening to others. Whether or not the situation in the states is better, (it is, but 'equality' is still far off,) he still deserves respect for being a great American. Not all heroes earn their cred in a foxhole. At some point, he stood up and said, "I'm going to be myself, and fuck anyone that has a problem with it!" In a time when termination, harassment and violence was certainly a possibility.

As far as marriage goes, civil unions are not equality. They are by definition a way to define gay people as different and less than equal.

I'm glad that you guys don't have to understand freedom to defend it.


Yeah. In 1957. Before almost everyone posting here was born. Multiple generations ago.
And you know, 50 years before THAT, we were still using horses as a primary method of transportation, and 50 years before THAT black people were still slaves.

As for civil unions, a good friend of mine is in a civil union. With her heterosexual partner. Because the legal union made sense for them in their long-term relationship, but they weren't ready for the religious commitment component of having a marriage ceremony yet.
So I have no idea what you are talking about with the "separate but equal" martyr hyperbole.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Brekkie » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:12 am

cerwillis wrote:I know a lot of gay people, and I don't know a single one that grew up having a "perfectly happy life". Just imagine for a second growing up knowing that there is something different about you, that society considers "wrong", and you can't tell even your best friend or your MOTHER about it without fear of rejection. Again, complete lack of perspective here, so I think I'll grab some /popcorn after this post.


No, see, "society" thinks that the people who are that intolerant are the ones with something wrong with them, and shun them as nutjob religious fundies.

Where the heck did you grow up? Because even in the deep south, this is pretty much the case. It honestly baffles me that you have such a totally different perception of society than I have.

And the way you deal with bullying is to laugh heartily in their face. And if they DARE touch you, you turn them in without mercy, and then go take Karate lessons. I learned this, and I didn't even have a father figure around to teach it to me.

There's ALWAYS something you can do: RESIST.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby cerwillis » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:15 am

Brekkie wrote:Yeah. In 1957. Before almost everyone posting here was born. Multiple generations ago.
And you know, 50 years before THAT, we were still using horses as a primary method of transportation, and 50 years before THAT black people were still slaves.

What part of, "Civil rights are better now because of this man's work." Is giving you trouble here?
Brekkie wrote:As for civil unions, a good friend of mine is in a civil union. With her heterosexual partner. Because the legal union made sense for them in their long-term relationship, but they weren't ready for the religious commitment component of having a marriage ceremony yet.
So I have no idea what you are talking about with the "separate but equal" martyr hyperbole.

Your friend had that choice. Gay people do not.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Brekkie » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:24 am

It sounded like you were implying that that guy's experience was representative of society today. Which it is not.
I'm sure he did great work or whatever.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Belloc » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:07 pm

cerwillis wrote:I know a lot of gay people, and I don't know a single one that grew up having a "perfectly happy life". Just imagine for a second growing up knowing that there is something different about you, that society considers "wrong", and you can't tell even your best friend or your MOTHER about it without fear of rejection. Again, complete lack of perspective here, so I think I'll grab some /popcorn after this post.

I hate to be the one to say this, but...

I know a lot of straight people, and I don't know a single one that grew up having a "perfectly happy life."

Pretty much everyone grows up with the fear of rejection. It's completely normal for every human.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby lythac » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:14 pm

cerwillis wrote:I know a lot of gay people, and I don't know a single one that grew up having a "perfectly happy life". Just imagine for a second growing up knowing that there is something different about you, that society considers "wrong", and you can't tell even your best friend or your MOTHER about it without fear of rejection. Again, complete lack of perspective here, so I think I'll grab some /popcorn after this post.


Which teenager doesn't grow up angst free and perfectly happy? I don't know a single straight person that grew up having a "perfectly happy life". When I look back at both theirs and my growing up it has been pretty awesome, but at points we would have been whiny little emo bitches. I do not see a great distinction in teeenage happiness between hereto and homo children. I do concede on transgender.

Also there is something different about me, which I have not told my best friend or my mother but I am a Protection Paladin (or was, I don't know what I am right now).

To counter sexuality with disability (and being Paladins) an ex-girlfriend of mine and her mother both thought I might have higher functioning autism (they said aspergers, but I prefer this terminology). And they work with people with disabilities. I mentioned this to my mother and she had thought of it as well. Frankly a lot of people on this forum display a lot of the characteristics of aspergers and I am sure a lot would have been diagnosed with it as children and another mass display several of the key factors for it.

I am pretty sure society looks down on those with mental disabilities to the same degree as sexuality (less physical violence though) but my point is straight people don't have it easy just by being straight. Humans are complex enough that happiness growing up isn't solely down to sexuality. Growing up is a confusing and unhappy time for most people (mine was fine with hindsight).
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby cerwillis » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:18 pm

I expected someone to say this, and it is true, but I was replying to the spirit of Brekkies comment, which indicated a 1000:1 ratio of 'perfectly happy' gay childhoods to bad experiences. I like how you guys take issue with my use of that phrase, but not with Brekkie's original post.

I'm done trying to convince bigots to not be bigoted over the internet.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby lythac » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:36 pm

cerwillis wrote:I expected someone to say this, and it is true, but I was replying to the spirit of Brekkies comment, which indicated a 1000:1 ratio of 'perfectly happy' gay childhoods to bad experiences. I like how you guys take issue with my use of that phrase, but not with Brekkie's original post.

I'm done trying to convince bigots to not be bigoted over the internet.


Well I strongly disagree with Brekkie's post on the 1000:1 ratio, unless the "1" is the happy people. Gay kids have shitty childhoods, so do straight children.

Nobody is disagreeing that gay kids can have shit childhoods. The only disagreement seems to be that straight kids can't have shit childhoods on par with gay kids and when that is put forward, we (I) am accused of being a bigot?!

It seems that if a straight person puts forward a valid point we are called a bigot. I am sorry if I have misread your post but you look to be positively discriminating against straight people, dismissing their views and calling them bigots? Or you failed to read my post.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby cerwillis » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:41 pm

I find nothing bigoted about you or your post. I was referring to the entire conversation. Brekkie doesn't believe that civil rights activists are needed in our country. I find that to be bigoted and short-sighted.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Brekkie » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:57 pm

Lots of hyperbole here.

Also, you guys have too high standards for happiness.
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Re: Just Gotta Say...

Postby Skye1013 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:06 pm

Flex wrote:
Dazhbog wrote:Bolded the part that just.... boggles my mind. Ow. No. You don't seriously believe that, do you? That if you're beaten or abused or raped or similar and don't report it (perhaps because you fear for your life if you do), that's the same as accepting the crimes are justified?


Pretty much. Why would you think so little of yourself otherwise?

I'm quoting Flex but this question applies to both him and Brekkie....

Do you feel the same way about rape victims who don't report it?
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