Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby theckhd » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:53 am

Thalia wrote:Lol...if it was over here the folks with the university degrees would be the most likely to fail the virginity tests :D lol j/p now that was a generalization, i blame it on MTV Spring Break =P


You haven't been to an engineering mixer lately. :P

I'm surprised nobody's brought up Guantanamo, amongst other things in our past. Governments are made of people, and people make bad decisions from time to time for all sorts of reasons. That doesn't excuse them, nor does it mean that we shouldn't be outraged when such things happen. But it's easy to get caught up in the illusion that a government is a monolithic entity. It's not.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:23 am

Chasey wrote:Didn't realize this place turned into the ANTI American MMO Champion all of a sudden.

To be honest, that post was rather tame compared to many here. I'm guessing you haven't read much of these types of threads in the asylum. That said, I wouldn't call this board anti American. We do have a rather diverse population and folks are bound to disagree on these types of issues.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Fridmarr » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:28 am

theckhd wrote:
Thalia wrote:Lol...if it was over here the folks with the university degrees would be the most likely to fail the virginity tests :D lol j/p now that was a generalization, i blame it on MTV Spring Break =P


You haven't been to an engineering mixer lately. :P

Next time you attend try wearing one of these watches, hell if you do I'll be your date :oops:

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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Candiru » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:10 am

TBH if you don't think that something that any given government does is unacceptable, you aren't looking hard enough!
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Lightbeard » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:17 pm

Fivelives wrote:I wouldn't say that they haven't been, but up until the debut of cable television networks the news was literally the only thing on in its timeslot. That meant they didn't have to pander to the viewers in order to get them. Now it's all about what can capture the collective attention span (which, by the way, only begins to compare to your average gnat or goldfish) long enough for it to register on the nielsen meters.

People like Walter Cronkite, Barbara Walters, hell even print journalists like Woodward and Bernstein - they reported the news as it was. It wasn't spun, there was no agenda, it was just "hey people. This is what happened today".

Now there are talking heads all over the place that ALL have agendas, and ratings are Important. There are options for people now - if we don't like what's on the news, we can watch a sitcom on TBS, or our favorite drama on USA. Hey, isn't <random movie> on Comedy Central? Oooh, look! It's Adult Swim on the Cartoon Network... and so on and so forth.

The news had to change when the audience changed. We were no longer interested in factual reports; instead, we're interested in Lindsay Lohan's court appearances. Or the last time Paris Hilton dropped trou for an audience. We went from wanting to be informed to wanting to be entertained, and stopped caring about anything that didn't immediately impact our daily lives. That's what it means to be a member of "Generation ME".


To be fair, maybe not to the extent it is now but news stations have always reported things going on with celebrities.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Lightbeard » Fri Jun 03, 2011 3:19 pm

Candiru wrote:TBH if you don't think that something that any given government does is unacceptable, you aren't looking hard enough!


This is exactly why I get pissed when Canadians and the Brits try to flaunt their countries as perfect.

No offense to anyone.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby theckhd » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:42 pm

Fridmarr wrote:
theckhd wrote:You haven't been to an engineering mixer lately. :P

Next time you attend try wearing one of these watches, hell if you do I'll be your date :oops:

My advisor has that clock on his wall.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Dantriges » Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:07 pm

theckhd wrote:I'm surprised nobody's brought up Guantanamo, amongst other things in our past.


You mean Abu Ghraib?

Well they are probably extreme cases but well prisons in general have the repuation that abuse and violence is occuring regularly.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Fivelives » Fri Jun 03, 2011 10:56 pm

Gitmo was a good idea with horrible implementation. If they'd required more evidence in order to slap someone in there, then it would've been fine - but some tourists from the middle east were thrown in there simply because they have a bank account in their home country. It spiraled way out of control, way fast and was a product of overreaction on our part.

Sadly, I'm of the firm belief that if anyone was stuck in Gitmo who wasn't a terrorist already, they probably were by the time they got out.

Most of the abuse and violence in prisons is on the part of the inmates. Unlike television would like us to believe, not every guard is on the take, nor are they abusive to prisoners. There are a few, yeah, but luckily those are few and far between. It's a problem that I imagine is shared by every country, though.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Dantriges » Sat Jun 04, 2011 3:29 am

The problem is probably shared by all prison systems. Abu Ghraib and this one here is probably a sign of inexperienced people running a prison, but ok I am not actually sure if the normal guards in egypt are highly trained proessionals either. Well stuff like the Stanford Prison experiment and similar stuff seem to indicate that prison systems at least have a tendency to violence, even from the guards. I am not sure if prison systems even in western countries have enough safeguards in place to prevent abuse by the people in charge.
Considering that guards are harassed too by the inmates and are in charge, there were probably more than a few violent retribution acts by guards. Considering that you probably don´t recruit only saints with an incredible amount of willpower, a few years of getting feces thrown at you, insulted, perhaps even attacked and whatever else inmates think of, will wear the patience of most guards thin.

And Gitmo was not a good idea. A democratic government propagating human rights as one of his core beliefs and embracing due legal process that looks for a legal loophole to imprison people and getting rid of judicial oversight, violating human rights in the process is more or less discarding the principles it has sworn to uphold. I expect a lawful government to uphold the law and not to discard it when it turns out inconvenient to do so and demolishing his reputation in the world.

Gvernments like China would probably be ROFLing if a US foreign secretary would try to tell them something about their human rights violations and ask if the US needs some advice how to do it properly behind closed doors).
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Tenaka » Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:03 am

Lightbeard wrote: and the Brits try to flaunt their countries as perfect.


Don't worry, that one person that does that has been re-institutionalised.

WTB national pride, will accept something to have pride in.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Fivelives » Sat Jun 04, 2011 5:25 am

The good idea was to keep verified people who were interested in performing or supporting acts of terror in a prison where they wouldn't have access to any outside contact - even solitary confinement in "regular" prisons doesn't stop prisoners from outside contact. The error in implementation came from the verification process - there were people wrongfully imprisoned because the people in charge were still operating on a reflex action rather than reasoned action. If their standards for imprisonment were more strict, then it would've worked fine.

As far as civil liberties violations are concerned - um, honestly? Who cares? They aren't citizens of the US, they are enemies of the US. I don't agree with the geneva and hague conventions violations that were going on there, but treat them at the very least as prisoners of war. We aren't obligated to give foreign nationals the benefit of our justice system, and never have been.

The Stanford prison experiment, I'll grant you. That was a microcosm though, based on a few days of experience in their positions and a lack of any sort of rules - rather than the years of experience most prison guards have that follow rather strict regulations. Sure, prison guards aren't the nicest people, but there's a reason they coined the term "Jailhouse Lawyers". Any perceived violation on the part of the guards is investigated (rather thoroughly) and prosecuted (rather often), and the guards who are working that are unsuited to the job are usually weeded out within their probationary period.

I would be interested in seeing the results of a new prisoner experiment where the guards and inmates were given a strict set of rules to abide by.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby theckhd » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:22 am

Fivelives wrote:Gitmo was a good idea with horrible implementation. If they'd required more evidence in order to slap someone in there, then it would've been fine - but some tourists from the middle east were thrown in there simply because they have a bank account in their home country. It spiraled way out of control, way fast and was a product of overreaction on our part.

To be clear, it was the human rights violations that I expected people to bring up. I don't object to Gitmo or prisons in general, but I do object to many of the things that were done there.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Dantriges » Sat Jun 04, 2011 6:58 am

I think the only repetition of the Stanford prison experiment was one in britain conducted in cooperation with the BBC. :roll:
hey had more stringent rules and learned from the Stanford experiment, but well the presence of the cameras probably resulted in people behaving a bit better because their friends and relatives could see them later. Still seems the whole thing broke down after 6 days in a revolution and the rebels, a mixture of prisoners and guards wanted to establish a stricter system after revolution. The psychologist conducting the experiment stopped it early after 6 days.

He wrote about his theory and his criticism of the orignal experiment here: http://www.thepsychologist.org.uk/archi ... cleID=1291
I agree with him somewhat but still think that the guy who led the first experiment was at least partially right, in his criticism that he called the new one just a reality TV show.
It probably wasn´t, the BBC documentaries we get over here, are quite well done, but the presence of cameras is a disturbing influence.

Gitmo was a wrong idea right from the beginning because it was built there to circumvent US law and law enforcement with a technicality.
A government should try to work within and uphold the law and not exploit it.
OK I could be wrng but AFAIK itwas built there because it was at a US military base under complete US control but outside US jurisdiction.
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Re: Egyptian police "Virginity Checks?"

Postby Fivelives » Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:54 am

It was used solely because it was impossible for them to get messages out. The idea was that if we cut their lines of communication it would make it impossible for them to plan new attacks. Like I said - good idea, horrible implementation.

As far as human rights are concerned, ehh - that's debatable. Granted, they should have stuck to the spirit of the hague and geneva conventions regarding treatment of prisoners of war, but were they technically violated? Not really - they were given access to proper medical care, fed adequately, and clothed. Were they violated in spirit? Shit yeah. We were pissed, and the soldiers guarding the facility were (falsely) informed that we had "solid evidence" as to their activities, even in cases where we didn't actually have it.

A lot of people are confusing civil liberties with human rights. Civil liberties are what we have in the US justice system - first and foremost, the assumption of innocence and then mostly based on the 4th and 5th amendments (safety from improper search and seizure, safety from self-incrimination). Those are what were denied the prisoners being held at gitmo. The prisoners there were assumed guilty and didn't have the protections granted to citizens by the bill of rights.
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