Remove Advertisements

Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Invisusira's playground

Moderators: Aergis, Invisusira

Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Arnock » Mon May 02, 2011 4:17 pm

bldavis wrote:the thing alot of us are forgetting is that innocent until proven guilty may be true here in the states, but isnt a universal thing

iirc some SA countries have laws that you must prove your innocence (im going off like 12yr old trivia so forgive me if im wrong)

reasonable doubt doesnt not mean 100% leak proof case against the guy, it means to a point at which there are no arguments that can be made against the claim that make you question its validity, as an unbiased third party

the big question is who will take the reins now?
not only as head of Al Qaida but also at the head of USA's most hated list?


Justin Bieber.
Image
Courage not of this earth in your eyes
Faith from far beyond lies deep inside
User avatar
Arnock
 
Posts: 3657
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:36 pm
Location: Everywhere and nowhere

Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Heil » Mon May 02, 2011 4:23 pm

Image
Name's Panda, G. D. Panda.
User avatar
Heil
 
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 8:13 am
Location: Villa Park, IL

Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby laterna » Mon May 02, 2011 4:36 pm

Dorvan wrote:
laterna wrote:
Invisusira wrote:...you know that video is real, right? That the whole "omg osama video was faked" conspiracy theory bs is just that, right? That the video was recorded at a different aspect ratio than the American standard? That the frame you see linked all the time -
image
- was hand picked simply because it looks a little off, and that if you actually watch the rest of the video it's pretty obviously him?


You understand what "unbiased" court means? It doesn't matter if 1 frame is off looking, even if theres a 1% chance to prove thats not him, a proper court will not rule against him, unless full evidence are provided.


Um, no:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_doubt

Quack conspiracy theories do not constitute reasonable doubt: "there can still be a doubt, but only to the extent that it would not affect a reasonable person's belief regarding whether or not the defendant is guilty". Convicting someone in a court of law does not require that you prove it is absolutely impossible the crime could've been committed by someone else.


Definitions become so thin when it comes to this, some people believe its him, some don't. Personally, I'm more of the "not him" kind of camp. However, if there is even a small minority who believe its not him, thats a justfiable case in a court. Think of it this way, if you think its him, but his lawyer brings even 1 person in belief its not him then his claim is justifiable.
laterna
Moderator
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:00 pm

Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Flex » Mon May 02, 2011 4:42 pm

laterna wrote:Definitions become so thin when it comes to this, some people believe its him, some don't. Personally, I'm more of the "not him" kind of camp. However, if there is even a small minority who believe its not him, thats a justfiable case in a court. Think of it this way, if you think its him, but his lawyer brings even 1 person in belief its not him then his claim is justifiable.


what
We live in a society where people born on third base constantly try to steal second, yet we expect people born with two strikes against them to hit a homerun on the first pitch.
User avatar
Flex
 
Posts: 7499
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Lightbeard » Mon May 02, 2011 4:50 pm

RedAces wrote:hey,

katraya wrote:And where could we have tried him? The International Criminal Court may have made the most sense but that would have caused outrage in the US. We're also not a member nation... A civil or military court in the US would have been completely biased.

China would have to trial him, maybe the most objective state there is... but yeah ... massive outrage on all fronts.

Bye, RedAces.


Why do people sign that names on their posts when we can clearly see their name?

I never got that
Image
User avatar
Lightbeard
 
Posts: 6615
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:03 pm

Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby laterna » Mon May 02, 2011 4:51 pm

Personal definitions are personal.

Taken from the wiki

"Personal belief". In an un-biased enviroment the people who would pass that video as fake, or right, depend entirely on randomness.
laterna
Moderator
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:00 pm

Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Dorvan » Mon May 02, 2011 5:03 pm

laterna wrote:Personal definitions are personal.

Taken from the wiki

"Personal belief". In an un-biased enviroment the people who would pass that video as fake, or right, depend entirely on randomness.


Sorry, but people believe lots of stupid things...their stupidity is not licence to ignore forensic evidence. In such a trial should the defense be allowed to question the authenticity of the tape? Absolutely. Do the arguments thus far put forward by conspiracy theorists have any scientific merit? Not a whit. To claim the their can be no basis for determining the authenticity of the tape except for randomness is nothing but foolish ignorance, and I'm a fool for trying to engage with that kind of attitude.

Again, "reasonable doubt" is based on what rational person would conclude given the evidence at hand. Making a gut call that flies in the face of the evidence presented does not count as reasonable.
Image

WHAT WOULD BEST DESCRIBE YOUR PERSONALITY?
Moonlight Sonata Techno Remix
Scriggle - 85 Fire Mage
Fizzmore - 81 Mut Rogue
Adorania - 80 Disc Priest
User avatar
Dorvan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8462
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:28 pm

Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Dorvan » Mon May 02, 2011 5:10 pm

laterna wrote:Definitions become so thin when it comes to this, some people believe its him, some don't. Personally, I'm more of the "not him" kind of camp. However, if there is even a small minority who believe its not him, thats a justfiable case in a court. Think of it this way, if you think its him, but his lawyer brings even 1 person in belief its not him then his claim is justifiable.


That's not the legal standard, not even close. You're seriously suggesting that the legal standard for evidence is that no one in the entire world would disagree with the conclusion? Do you know anything about law, or even stop for half a second to consider the absurdity of what you're suggesting?
Image

WHAT WOULD BEST DESCRIBE YOUR PERSONALITY?
Moonlight Sonata Techno Remix
Scriggle - 85 Fire Mage
Fizzmore - 81 Mut Rogue
Adorania - 80 Disc Priest
User avatar
Dorvan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8462
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:28 pm

Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Fivelives » Mon May 02, 2011 5:41 pm

I think the point laterna was trying to make is that it only takes one juror for a not guilty verdict. Court verdicts must be unanimous, or else it's a hung jury leading to a mistrial, or a not guilty in favor of the defendent.

If bin Laden's defense attorney convinced even one juror that the video was faked, then that's reasonable doubt for the first video to have also been faked.

Now, considering that'd be an affirmative defense (frame-ups, self defense, and mental illness are "affirmative defenses" where the burden of proof shifts from the prosecution to the defense), the judge would have to rule on whether or not the theory could even be presented to the jury. So it would still all hinge on a single person's belief/disbelief in the video - but in this case, it'd be the judge rather than the jury.

Also, the number of people who have been falling off roofs has sharply increased since the announcement.
- I'm not Jesus, but I can turn water into Kool-Aid.
- A Sergeant in motion outranks an officer who doesn't know what the hell is going on.
- A demolitions specialist at a flat run outranks everybody.
User avatar
Fivelives
 
Posts: 3106
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Lieris » Mon May 02, 2011 6:11 pm

Osama Bin Laden faked the moon landing.
Lieris
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 2181
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:49 am

Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Lightbeard » Mon May 02, 2011 6:14 pm

I'm disappointed they haven't released photos and quickly dumped the body.

Now all this will lead to is conspiracy nutjobs getting ammo.
Image
User avatar
Lightbeard
 
Posts: 6615
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:03 pm

Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby laterna » Mon May 02, 2011 6:28 pm

Dorvan wrote:
laterna wrote:Definitions become so thin when it comes to this, some people believe its him, some don't. Personally, I'm more of the "not him" kind of camp. However, if there is even a small minority who believe its not him, thats a justfiable case in a court. Think of it this way, if you think its him, but his lawyer brings even 1 person in belief its not him then his claim is justifiable.


That's not the legal standard, not even close. You're seriously suggesting that the legal standard for evidence is that no one in the entire world would disagree with the conclusion? Do you know anything about law, or even stop for half a second to consider the absurdity of what you're suggesting?


Fivelives put it better than I could.

If you're using 1 confession video, to base the entirity of a 10 year long war, with so many people duying, so much money thrown to waste, I'd be shitting my pants if I was the goverment going into a trial. Can you provide a link to the forensic evidence you speak of? As far as I know, there is a confession video, and about it in regards as to how Al'Qeida was brought to blame on the 9/11 events.
laterna
Moderator
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:00 pm

Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby Dorvan » Mon May 02, 2011 7:28 pm

laterna wrote:Fivelives put it better than I could.

If you're using 1 confession video, to base the entirity of a 10 year long war, with so many people duying, so much money thrown to waste, I'd be shitting my pants if I was the goverment going into a trial. Can you provide a link to the forensic evidence you speak of? As far as I know, there is a confession video, and about it in regards as to how Al'Qeida was brought to blame on the 9/11 events.


....if you think a single confession video is the sole case against Osama Bin Laden, then you are woefully under-informed. Even then, I could perhaps excuse the matter if you wanted to make some kind of case that KSM was acting without Bin Laden's specific approval on the operation, but then to express the opinion that 9/11 wasn't an Al Qaeda deal...are you serious? You not one of those "the US was behind 9/11" folks are you?

I'm not going to repeat a case that's better outlined elsewhere, but as a start to educating yourself in the matter, I might suggest chapter 5 of the 9/11 commission report.

Perhaps, however, an explanation of your understanding of forces behind the 9/11 attack would be more enlightening than anything else right now.
Image

WHAT WOULD BEST DESCRIBE YOUR PERSONALITY?
Moonlight Sonata Techno Remix
Scriggle - 85 Fire Mage
Fizzmore - 81 Mut Rogue
Adorania - 80 Disc Priest
User avatar
Dorvan
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 8462
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:28 pm

Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby laterna » Mon May 02, 2011 9:31 pm

After reading chapter 5, as you said, I still stand unsure on what exactly you are trying to prove. Its a goverment document backing up a goverment claim. No shown recording of conversations, phone bills, wire transfers as the document claims? 30ish pages of history but no documents? The extend to which chapter 5 goes into is phenomenal. They knew just how much funding went into each part, but they didn't predict that 9/11 would happen?

I don't have sufficient evidence to believe 9/11 is or isn't Al'Qaeda's fault.They could have done it, but I don't know if they did. I'm a prick when it comes to convincing me. Unless hard evidence are shown, I don't let my opinion change. Giving me a goverment report on a goverment claim, makes me want to reference back to my earliest posts and say "look, its there, so its right". Exactly the same claim, but still phenomenally stupid.

If you want an outline of what happened in my opinion, here it goes

9/11 happens Afganistan gets invaded, in what was heralded as a 18 month operation.
10 years later, the head of Al'Qaeda gets killed, heralded as the mastermind behind 9/11.

Thats it. I don't hold extremist views as you try to portrait. I don't believe Al'Qeada wasn't or was behind 9/11. Insufficient evidence both ways. A goverment report holds no merit in my eyes, unless it shows evidence.
laterna
Moderator
 
Posts: 325
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:00 pm

Re: Osama Bin Laden is dead.

Postby mew » Mon May 02, 2011 9:45 pm

I liked all the comedy facebook status updates yesterday. My favorite two were:

"Why did they have to go do that? He was living in caves and now he gets to fuck virgins for eternity."
"In related news, Chuck Norris just returned from his relaxing vacation in the hills of Pakistan."


I've never unfriended someone on facebook before, but one girl posted, "i wish obama would die too... hahahaha". And so I watched it a bit and no one commented on it, it just got two likes. I was tempted to post either "Why would you even say that?" or "That's not very Christian of you", but instead I just removed her. I don't think a person's words have ever disgusted me before.
ImageImage
User avatar
mew
 
Posts: 1903
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:42 pm
Location: US

PreviousNext

Return to Arkham Asylum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there are 2 users online :: 1 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest