Kingdom Tower

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Re: Kingdom Tower

Postby Fivelives » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:05 pm

cerwillis wrote:
Melathys wrote:notice the top of the tower is for power generation. I wonder if that means water would be pulled up vs pumped up, and if that makes any kind of difference.

Unless they're harvesting the water from the sky, it's gonna have to be pumped up there somehow. Whether the pumping system is at the top or bottom wouldn't matter in terms of the energy needed.

I think.


Wouldn't you need a closed system for the pump at the top and an open or closed system for having the pump at the bottom? If you're drawing water up from the ground, you'd need a vacuum in the system, and wouldn't that create the need for more energy vs the pump pushing it up from underneath?

I'm not even an educated layman when it comes to things like this, so feel free to ignore or roast my theory.
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Re: Kingdom Tower

Postby Candiru » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:10 pm

Its impossible to suck water *up* more than ~15m as once you have a complete vacuum on top of the water you can't suck any harder. You have to pump things up from below for any large building. They could capture water from the rain though, which might be worth doing with something that large. Or you could electrolyse water at ground level, float a hydrogen balloon up to the top then run a large fuel cell off the hydrogen at the top and collect the water to pour down from the top! That way the lifting is done for free! (although, electrolysis would cost far more, but never mind :P)
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Re: Kingdom Tower

Postby bldavis » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:18 pm

Fivelives wrote:
cerwillis wrote:
Melathys wrote:notice the top of the tower is for power generation. I wonder if that means water would be pulled up vs pumped up, and if that makes any kind of difference.

Unless they're harvesting the water from the sky, it's gonna have to be pumped up there somehow. Whether the pumping system is at the top or bottom wouldn't matter in terms of the energy needed.

I think.


Wouldn't you need a closed system for the pump at the top and an open or closed system for having the pump at the bottom? If you're drawing water up from the ground, you'd need a vacuum in the system, and wouldn't that create the need for more energy vs the pump pushing it up from underneath?

I'm not even an educated layman when it comes to things like this, so feel free to ignore or roast my theory.

iirc from 1 1/2 yrs ago when i took hydraulics, in order to have the pump at bottom, you would need a venting system at the top and just pushing it , which would take alot of power

looking at power demands, it does make sense that sucking a 1km column of water straight up would take much more power than pushing it up, even if you could suck it straight up that far.
depending on the system, you could have a large storage tank hooked up to a somewhat smaller pipe, and the pressure from the tank itself would aid in pushing the water at least partway up

and no, i really shouldnt be taken seriously, as the only way i passed hydraulics is through sheer dumb luck
(i guessed on my final and guessed right)
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Re: Kingdom Tower

Postby Fivelives » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:41 pm

So without a vacuum, how would you draw the water the rest of the way up top? I'm picturing a straw in a glass - the liquid (tasty, tasty liquid) is in a reservoir at the bottom, and my mouth is providing the suction/vacuum that draws the tasty beverage from the reservoir on up. Isn't that a closed system? There's no(t much) air leakage between lips and straw, and none between straw and liquid.
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Re: Kingdom Tower

Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:51 pm

Fivelives wrote:So without a vacuum, how would you draw the water the rest of the way up top? I'm picturing a straw in a glass - the liquid (tasty, tasty liquid) is in a reservoir at the bottom, and my mouth is providing the suction/vacuum that draws the tasty beverage from the reservoir on up. Isn't that a closed system? There's no(t much) air leakage between lips and straw, and none between straw and liquid.

As The column of fluid goes up, its own weight counterbalances the pressure that throws it up the pipe (suction is actually lowering the pressure so that the air pressure outside pushes it in) eventually can't raise it any further. With such a tall building it's a safe bet a vacuum just can't cause enough of a difference that you have a viable suction system there.
Give me a minute and i'll run the numbers.
====

The necessary pressure to make a column of water raise by 1600 meters is of ~15680000 N/sqm.

The atmosphere at ground level offers roughly 101325 N/sqm of pressure... 0,6% of the necessary pressure.
So...no can do. Making a tank tall enough to make up for it doesn't solve the problem either.
Last edited by Snake-Aes on Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kingdom Tower

Postby Arnock » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:20 pm

well, what appeared to be the top quarter of the tower was dedicated to 'alternative energy' so, assuming this power plant (whatever it winds up being, possibly wind due to the extreme height) is a closed system and doesn't require water to be pumped up to it, they probably wouldn't need to pipe water all the way up to the top very frequently.
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Re: Kingdom Tower

Postby Koatanga » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:23 pm

I wonder if they can utilise any of the enrgy of the water coming down to power the lifting of repalcement water. One assumes as much water will come down as goes up, less whatever is lost to evaporation.
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Re: Kingdom Tower

Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:29 pm

Yeah, they probably only need to supply the "first" 1200 meters or so, but that doesn't change much of the problem. With no ways to actually reduce the necessary energy to bring it up(like...reducing gravity in a specific location o.O), the only way to ease the travel up is to exploit sources of energy that are left wasted, like how cars use the brakes to recharge the battery, or how implants' batteries can be sustained by body movement with the right materials.


But don't be impressed...the numbers big as they are are not at all out of our technological reach, if out of monetary reach. The V Cat D8R is already sort of old news, for example.
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Re: Kingdom Tower

Postby Fivelives » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:31 pm

So I was right the first time when I said it'd take more energy to suck the water up than it would to push it up from below?

Sweet.
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Re: Kingdom Tower

Postby Brekkie » Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:27 am

what I got out of this thread is that if I try to drink soda out of a long enough straw it won't work.
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Re: Kingdom Tower

Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:07 am

Fivelives wrote:So I was right the first time when I said it'd take more energy to suck the water up than it would to push it up from below?

Sweet.

It's not that it would take more energy(it probably does), it's outright impossible after a certain point. In the end a vacuum can only provoke as much force as the outer pressure affecting the system. In this case, the atmosphere.

Brekkie wrote:what I got out of this thread is that if I try to drink soda out of a long enough straw it won't work.


I was pretty sad when I learned that myself.
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Re: Kingdom Tower

Postby Candiru » Tue Apr 12, 2011 9:23 am

Its quite fun to try, at the science week here in the Chemistry department they have a huge straw set up over the 6 floors of the building and you can try to suck up some liquid from the bottom, but its impossible!
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Re: Kingdom Tower

Postby Brekkie » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:35 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:
Fivelives wrote:So I was right the first time when I said it'd take more energy to suck the water up than it would to push it up from below?

Sweet.

It's not that it would take more energy(it probably does), it's outright impossible after a certain point. In the end a vacuum can only provoke as much force as the outer pressure affecting the system. In this case, the atmosphere.

Brekkie wrote:what I got out of this thread is that if I try to drink soda out of a long enough straw it won't work.


I was pretty sad when I learned that myself.


So in theory you could increase the suction power of a vacuum by increasing the pressure of the outside environment? So if I took my impossibly-long curly straw and attempted to drink soda inside of an air compressor?
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Re: Kingdom Tower

Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:55 pm

"Suction" does not exist. The pressure outside being greater than the pressure on the other end is what makes the fluid go up the straw
(the movie scenes where opened hatches in space pull people out? they are actually being pushed out by the air inside)
But yes, you are correct. By increasing the pressure outside, the "environment->vacuum" difference of pressure will increase.
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Re: Kingdom Tower

Postby cerwillis » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:26 pm

Snake-Aes wrote:But yes, you are correct. By increasing the pressure outside, the "environment->vacuum" difference of pressure will increase.

Which is how a pump works. =D
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