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Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:49 am
by Melathys
The random pic post reminded me of this old argument.

Say, you are standing before the gates of heaven, awaiting judgement. Is your life based on your actions, or your intentions? For example. Hitler -thought- he was doing the right thing...

Re: Before the gates of Heaven

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:28 am
by Eltiana
Actions. Most people who do bad things tend to think they're doing the right thing.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:39 am
by Passionario
Melathys wrote:Go ahead and vote, but if you choose the first option, you're supporting HITLER.


Fixed.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:15 am
by Brekkie
Judged based on CBH

Re: Before the gates of Heaven

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:19 am
by bldavis
Brekkie wrote:Judged based on CBH

btw where is our cbh option?????

I WANT TO BE JUDGED ON MY KODOS TAIL!!!!!

:shock:
i mean my man hips.......

Re: Before the gates of Heaven

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:41 am
by Candiru
C) CBH
D) Neither, there is no God to judge.
E) How much pasta you cooked (Flying-spaghetti monster is true)

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:59 am
by Melathys
theres also this old saying. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

I'm not trying to trick anyone into supporting hitler, lol He's just a good example. I've just always found this to be an interesting question. On the flip side, I'm sure there's people that had evil intentions, but their actions turned out good (I don't have any examples though)

Re: Before the gates of Heaven

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 11:21 am
by Treck
If your "good" intentions lead directly or indirectly to bad actions, isnt that bad planning on your part?
Sure were not all knowing, but if you intended to rid a patient of an illness, then by killing the person in question you might have achieved your goal with good intentions, but bad execution.
A very blunt example obviously but one action usually have lots of consequences, some bad, some good, and you cant really balance them on a scale and see what comes out ahead.
And even if you meant good, does that negate the bad part of the spectrum?

And who is to say what is right or wrong?
Your particular god? What if when you die you stand infront of another god that you didnt "follow", then your intentions were still "good" since you thought you did right, but according to the god your standing infront, all those intentions ended up as bad actions.

Most "bad" people have had good intentions, Hitler had good intentions, he wanted to strengthen humanity, and i wouldnt say thats a bad intention, he just tried doing it in a way most people see as a "bad" action, not to mention that the fact that he "lost" the war automaticly makes everything he did into "bad" actions, even tho the general view of things were a lot different before.
Im not pro-Hitler or anything, but peoples view of things change, one thing thats considered "good" 200 years ago doesnt mean its still a "good" thing to do.

If there is a god, who is eternal, would he change his opinion like humanity reshapes itself? or is god reshaping humanity (he/she is a god afterall) into what he suddenly realises is "good"/"bad"?

Im obviously not religious, and i think that when you die, you stop existing and your life is over, and all that is left of you are the chain of actions you set in motion from the start of your life till the end of it.
Thus your actions actually matter, since your intentions wont do anything for the rest of the world, as youve allready stopped existing.
If you do beleave in a god, you better make sure you know what he/she thinks are things worth "points" to get into heaven, seems a bit farfetched imo.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:06 pm
by Shathus
Melathys wrote:theres also this old saying. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

I'm not trying to trick anyone into supporting hitler, lol He's just a good example. I've just always found this to be an interesting question. On the flip side, I'm sure there's people that had evil intentions, but their actions turned out good (I don't have any examples though)


Sounds like the whole machiavellian "ends justify the means" thing.

"You killed that puppy!"
"he had rabies and would have attacked the other dogs"

kill 1 to save a 1,000 or whatever

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:24 pm
by Passionario
Melathys wrote:Say, you are standing before the gates of heaven, awaiting judgement. Is your life based on your actions, or your intentions?

Both, and more. I believe that the Almighty does not judge you based on a single criterion, but evaluates you in your entirety and totality, taking into account your intentions and your actions, your desires and your beliefs, your failures and your successes, your wishes and your fears, et cetera.

(And, of course, this happens at every moment, not just after your death)

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:55 pm
by Fivelives
Wow. Godwin'd in the ORIGINAL POST ... That's gotta be some kind of record.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:07 pm
by theckhd
Treck wrote:Most "bad" people have had good intentions, Hitler had good intentions, he wanted to strengthen humanity, and i wouldnt say thats a bad intention, he just tried doing it in a way most people see as a "bad" action, not to mention that the fact that he "lost" the war automaticly makes everything he did into "bad" actions, even tho the general view of things were a lot different before.


I think this is a stretch. He may have said he wanted to "strengthen" humanity, but he based it on a completely arbitrary definition of "strength." "Aryan=good, Jew=bad" is not an objective definition, nor one supported by science, even given the limitations of scientific knowledge in the 1930s. This is exactly the sort of doublespeak that irks me about modern politics; phrasing your idea to sound altruistic does not inherently make it so.

I don't think anyone will really be able to accurately say what he intended. He was one of the first political masterminds of the modern era, able to enthrall listeners and persuade them to agree with him on some of the most insane policies the world has ever seen. Everything he said and wrote was carefully calculated, which makes it hard to determine which parts of it he really believed, and which parts were just fabricated to "win" his audience.

Further, I don't think that the fact that he lost automatically makes everything he did "bad." He did lots of good things for the country before the war, especially economically. Conversely, even had he won the war, it wouldn't have made any of his atrocities automatically "good."

On-topic, I don't think that separating it into "intentions" and "actions / choices" makes sense. Having good intentions but using "bad" methods to achieve them is no better or worse than having "bad" intentions and achieving them through "good" actions. Being "good" doesn't require one or the other; a truly "good" person has good intentions and tries to achieve those goals by making morally "good" choices along the way.

And before we get into a Lawful/Chaotic/Neutral alignment debate, let's remember that "good" and "evil" are not binary. There are shades of grey here. Is the person who defies authority for a good reason good, or evil? What about the person who does something "bad" for the greater good? How "bad" can that something be before it offsets the "greater good" of the result? While you may not be able to put a definite number on these things, it's pretty clear there's a lot more options than "1" and "0."

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:32 pm
by bldavis
i agree with theck, hitler may have been one helluva whack job in our eyes, but to get an entire nation to follow him, that took some skill
he was a master of public speaking, to the point that the speech class i took last year we studied him.

granted germany was in the midst of the great depression, and the butt chewing of the century (at that point) from the League of Nations for starting WWI
it comes down to Hitler found an audience that was looking for someone to make things "right" again, and if going against the precursor to the UN is the way to get it, then by all means screw the demilitariation!

alot of things can be said about the horrors of WWII, from the brutal massacres on the battlefield to the insane mass murders ordered by the german and soviet heads-of-states, but when you think about it a lot of good things came about b/c of WWII as well

would we have the jet technology we have now? i doubt it, we would definetly have jets, but prob not to the same extent

we wouldnt have a lot of the medical knowledge, esp (im tired of trying to spell it) regarding-brain, without some of the more macabre and heinous expiriments done in concentration camps

my point is, before we start calling people evil and wrong, think about what good has come from it
Yes i think the mass killing of Jews, and enyone else Hitler and Stalin got peeved at, was wrong.
Yes i think the expiriments done in concentraion and death camps was wrong

am i glad that those expiriments were done? yes
my cousin is alive because her surgeons were about to get a tumor out of her brain.

without those expiriments, we might not have the knowledge that we do, and i might have another relative in the ground

Hitler did ALOT of nasty stuff, but starting WWII started a MASSIVE technology leap which helped propel us to where we are today

if you ever get in an accident and are seriously injured (god forbid), chances are some, if not all, the technigues used to save your life were developed on the battle feild sometime in the last century.

be it WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Gulf Wars, (i dont remember any others off the top of my head) war is a catalyst that helps start off technological development

basically, like theck said, there is no way to clearly state A=GOOD, Z=EVIL
there is no black and white, everything is gray

alot of good things come from bad things
alot of bad things come from some of the best intentions

there is also the matter of perspective, something i veiw as evil and wrong, say abortion in the case of consesual sex between adults that just were too dam lazy to buy protections and/or use it, you may be completely okay with

or it could be the other way around.

it is all a matter of perspective, no matter what we are discussing ther will ALWAYS be someone that thinks it is evil, and there will ALWAYS be someone who thinks it is perfectly good and fine.


Black and white is in movies and fiction.

/rant

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:18 am
by Skye1013
CBH, since I don't care for either of the other two options.

Depending on your faith, all of your sins can be forgiven (method of atonement varies) but if you're truly sorry for your actions, then a lot of religions preach that those sins won't affect you getting into Heaven. Also, for some actions (suicide for example), what one religion guarantees is a ticket straight to hell (most Christian based religions), another religion guarantees Heaven and 72 of your very own virgins! (Islam)

If we were to assume that whatever belief system you practice is true (and involves a form of Heaven as the end game), then as long as you followed the "rules" to the best of your ability, and repent when you stray (based on how those "rules" tell you), then regardless of your actions/intentions, you'd get into Heaven.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:00 am
by Tenaka
Never understood this concept. Surely a loving and forgiving god would allow all entry. Otherwise he's just a hypocrite.

And does the addition to the poll actually mean that CBH allows automatic entry to Heaven?

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:00 am
by Hokahey
Personally, I'm generally inclined toward actions. Intent is nice, but it really has no effect on anything outside of your own personal perception of events, and perhaps your conscience. I strongly doubt God cares in the slightest fashion about your intentions, because they are effectively meaningless.

The circumstances involved in you taking some actions (i.e. killing someone to protect yourself) may or not be something considered. If it is, how likely is it that a "self defense" clause is an automatic "get out of Hell free"? We're talking about a supreme omniscient and omnipotent being, and you may have violated their rules of what is/isn't supposed to happen. How likely do you think it really is that this being gives a rat's ass about your intentions?

Then again, I'm not really sold on there being a "Heaven" or "Hell" in the afterlife.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:18 am
by Io.Draco
I would argue both are quite equally important when judging an individual.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:17 am
by Fivelives
There's a common misconception that the 5th commandment is "thou shalt not kill", when it's "thou shalt not commit murder". There's a distinct difference between killing (which may or may not be justified, e.g. self-defense or war) and murder (which is never justified - murder is the intentional ending of a human life for no valid reason. "I just didn't like them/I felt like it" isn't a valid reason).

Otherwise? Everyone would be going to hell. "kill" is too broad a term - if you've ever stepped on a bug, you've killed and are therefore hellbound.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:07 am
by bldavis
Fivelives wrote:There's a common misconception that the 5th commandment is "thou shalt not kill", when it's "thou shalt not commit murder". There's a distinct difference between killing (which may or may not be justified, e.g. self-defense or war) and murder (which is never justified - murder is the intentional ending of a human life for no valid reason. "I just didn't like them/I felt like it" isn't a valid reason).

Otherwise? Everyone would be going to hell. "kill" is too broad a term - if you've ever stepped on a bug, you've killed and are therefore hellbound.


hmm maybe thats how
Jehova Witnesses can say only 140k are getting into heaven.....

on a side note, had them come by the house the other day, told me that and they are trying to save me.

i looked at them and said, ok what if i am the one that takes your spot?
if i believed that only 140k souls would be saved, then i would be sitting on my ass, not out trying to convince other ppl to join my religion

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:15 am
by Njall
So, we're given a choice of being damned Calvinist, a damned Papist, or a damned Sybarite.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:20 am
by crazyharry
bldavis wrote:
Fivelives wrote:There's a common misconception that the 5th commandment is "thou shalt not kill", when it's "thou shalt not commit murder". There's a distinct difference between killing (which may or may not be justified, e.g. self-defense or war) and murder (which is never justified - murder is the intentional ending of a human life for no valid reason. "I just didn't like them/I felt like it" isn't a valid reason).

Otherwise? Everyone would be going to hell. "kill" is too broad a term - if you've ever stepped on a bug, you've killed and are therefore hellbound.


hmm maybe thats how
Jehova Witnesses can say only 140k are getting into heaven.....

on a side note, had them come by the house the other day, told me that and they are trying to save me.

i looked at them and said, ok what if i am the one that takes your spot?
if i believed that only 140k souls would be saved, then i would be sitting on my ass, not out trying to convince other ppl to join my religion


I have a friend who is a JW and he explained it to me thus.

144k get to go to heaven and spend eternity praising jesus and the rest get reborn on to a 'cleansed' version of earth where they get to spend eternity praising jesus.
JW's dont believe in hell so if you are a non believer you just cease to exist.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:43 pm
by Io.Draco
Fivelives wrote:There's a common misconception that the 5th commandment is "thou shalt not kill", when it's "thou shalt not commit murder". There's a distinct difference between killing (which may or may not be justified, e.g. self-defense or war) and murder (which is never justified - murder is the intentional ending of a human life for no valid reason. "I just didn't like them/I felt like it" isn't a valid reason).

Otherwise? Everyone would be going to hell. "kill" is too broad a term - if you've ever stepped on a bug, you've killed and are therefore hellbound.


The Catholic's Church take on that is to not kill. Islam's take is to not murder.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:41 pm
by Lightbeard
Wow the Atheism vs Religion argument has begun already.

Edit: to answer the question. I say Actions.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:09 pm
by Mcduffie
If the military "loses" a nuclear device (stolen) it's supposed to be gotten back at all costs. Meaning that if innocent bystanders are in the way, they die.

Just a "fun to know" fact. Since someone brought up "saving 1 for 1000."

As to the OP, I don't believe in heaven. And toying with the "what ifs" is better time spent for me to think about boobs.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:55 pm
by Fivelives
Io.Draco wrote:
Fivelives wrote:There's a common misconception that the 5th commandment is "thou shalt not kill", when it's "thou shalt not commit murder". There's a distinct difference between killing (which may or may not be justified, e.g. self-defense or war) and murder (which is never justified - murder is the intentional ending of a human life for no valid reason. "I just didn't like them/I felt like it" isn't a valid reason).

Otherwise? Everyone would be going to hell. "kill" is too broad a term - if you've ever stepped on a bug, you've killed and are therefore hellbound.


The Catholic's Church take on that is to not kill. Islam's take is to not murder.


Matthew 19:16-22 wrote:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.


Pretty sure it's murder in both of the branches of Christianity.

Leviticus 19:16 wrote:16 You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life of your neighbor: I am the LORD.


I'm also pretty sure that it doesn't say "do not kill" anywhere in the bible as it refers to commandments or sins, but is rather specific on that whole murder thing.

Even the NKJ version lists it as "thou shalt do no murder".