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Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:09 am
by Fivelives
Syphlis won that war for the allies - if it hadn't driven Hitler crazy by the end, we would have lost - A-bomb or no bomb. But yeah, without the advances in nuclear science that lead up to the bomb, we wouldn't have a lot of what we do now. Atomic clocks, for instance.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:17 am
by Mcduffie
Passionario wrote:My point was that McDuffie's scenario is a trap - it's fundamentally the same as "The villain of Saw series locked you in a room and told you to disembowel seven pregnant women with a butcher knife in order to retrieve keys that have been implanted in their bodies. If you do not get all seven keys within five minutes, a machine will release mustard gas into a room full of children. What would you do?"

In both situations, the true villain is the one who engineered the situation, and you are merely one of the victims trying to cope with it and minimize the damage.


It's actually not a trap. The SOP exists. If nuclear weapon is stolen, military will return it AT ALL COSTS. You compared a movie with a situation that someone could actually be in. Which is starkly contrasted to "before the gates of heaven." Which is a HUGE what if.

Invisusira wrote:"What if" is a pretty pointless game to play. Almost as pointless as "Before the gates of Heaven."


What if there is an afterlife? What if there is a God? What if there are several Gods, and they all have cool powers? Yeah, I definitely feel very much the same on the subject. Just trying to spread the gospel of "wake the fuck up, and realize this is the one shot you got. Make it count."

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:51 am
by Masumi
Invisusira wrote:"What if" is a pretty pointless game to play. Almost as pointless as "Before the gates of Heaven."


^.^ it seems if the string is moved enough times, the cat will always jump in to play

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:01 pm
by thegreatheed
If only good things happened to good people, there really wouldn't be any good people, just well trained people.

And you missed an option in the poll.

Both.

I believe you'll be judged both by the things you did, and why you did them.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:12 am
by Skye1013
thegreatheed wrote:If only good things happened to good people, there really wouldn't be any good people, just well trained people.

And you missed an option in the poll.

Both.

I believe you'll be judged both by the things you did, and why you did them.

This is an either/or poll, there is no room for gray areas!!

/sarcasm :D

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:18 am
by Skwigelf
I agree with the both option.

Also Hitler got in because Jesus died for all of our sins, thus giving us a clean slate upon reaching the pearly gates.

That's right. Hitler is in heaven right now because a Jew sacrificed himself for his sins.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 6:27 am
by Skye1013
Skwigelf wrote:I agree with the both option.

Also Hitler got in because Jesus died for all of our sins, thus giving us a clean slate upon reaching the pearly gates.

That's right. Hitler is in heaven right now because a Jew sacrificed himself for his sins.

Only if Hitler repented for his sins. I can only speak for what I was taught growing up (Church of Christ, no not LDS) but you have to repent and be baptized for that to apply to you. After baptism, you're still supposed to ask for forgiveness, and THAT will allow you into Heaven.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:16 am
by Fivelives
Baptism only forgives original sin - according to the catholic church, we're all born sinners because we were cast out of the garden of eden. That one's the only "freebie" as far as absolution is concerned. Absolution is supposedly automatic, assuming that there's penitence on the sinner's part and they're honest in their desire to never repeat the sin again.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 9:24 am
by bldavis
i grew up LDS, and baptism was for all the sins you had commited before you found the truth
you were wiped clean and from then on, you had to repent in order to lose those new sins

also i snickered at the hitler in heaven b/c a jew gave his life for him

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:11 am
by Fivelives
Whenever you get converted to a new faith, their baptismal ceremony always forgives the sins you committed before joining that faith. It's an exception to the "baptism forgives original sin" rule.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Feb 18, 2011 11:48 am
by Daeren
The essential problem with good intentions that it's a slippery slope. Ofc, alot would choose 1 person to save 1000, but where does that number end? 1 for 50? 1 for 10? 1 for 5? 1 for 2? Maybe at gun point, you see numbers more clearly, but there's more ethical gray zones then.

Shouldn't we hack up a hobo with healthy organs to save several people with children? The net benefit is better than that one person. Heck, we don't even have to kill him, we just need one of his kidneys, one lung, and half his liver. That might be 3 people saved and none killed!

It can get even worse: In countries with public health care system (which excludes half of the posters here most likely) often you have to choose what treatment you would like to give to a person. Modern medicine is expensive, and we don't have unlimited supplies.
Can you choose what treatment to give? In one case, the person may or may not be cured, you don't know. Heck, some times it may only prolong their life span (essentially, all treatment is prolonging life span since we all die sooner or later). Can you say no to giving a family father the best possible treatment?
Then again, what's the cost of that treatment? Several more people may not get treatment and there's a net loss. Your good intentions towards that one person you decide to pour tons of money into is taking away from the people you don't know and will be denied treatment. This is why there's a roof on how much a human life year is worth spending money on. Yes, your life has a price tag, but then again, money there is only an object for prioritizing health money.

The road to hell can be paved with good intentions indeed, and some situations are harder than others. Some people might even draw it further in the way that you're taking more money than what you need and not giving enough to humanitarian aid. There's no bad intentions by spending money, but they might be spent for a better good.
It is a slippery slope indeed.

And, how can you know that your actions are right or wrong? Intentions is one thing, but in what cultural context should one view right from wrong? What religion is right? I do believe people have free will, but their way of thinking and actions are based upon their past experiences and culture.
Was the intention right? Most likely. Was the action wrong? Depends on who judges.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:55 pm
by Amirya
Live your life, according to your moral and ethical standards and beliefs. Be the best person you can possibly be, to the best of your ability.

If there is a God, and you are judged poorly, then perhaps he's not a God you want. If you are judged favorably, then you did what you needed to do.

If there isn't a God, then you were still the best person you could aspire.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:57 pm
by bldavis
Amirya wrote:Live your life, according to your moral and ethical standards and beliefs. Be the best person you can possibly be, to the best of your ability.

If there is a God, and you are judged poorly, then perhaps he's not a God you want. If you are judged favorably, then you did what you needed to do.

If there isn't a God, then you were still the best person you could aspire.

hear hear

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 6:59 pm
by Fetzie
Amirya wrote:Live your life, according to your moral and ethical standards and beliefs. Be the best person you can possibly be, to the best of your ability.

If there is a God, and you are judged poorly, then perhaps he's not a God you want. If you are judged favorably, then you did what you needed to do.

If there isn't a God, then you were still the best person you could aspire.


seconded

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 10:33 pm
by Skye1013
Amirya wrote:Live your life, according to your moral and ethical standards and beliefs. Be the best person you can possibly be, to the best of your ability.

If there is a God, and you are judged poorly, then perhaps he's not a God you want. If you are judged favorably, then you did what you needed to do.

If there isn't a God, then you were still the best person you could aspire.


/thumbsup Skye and 2 others like this post.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:37 am
by Fetzie
Personally I believe that if you believe in a heaven and a God, whichever deity it is you choose to worship, then you will get there. This heaven need not be the same place that other people go - maybe they don't like cheese and you love the stuff, a cheese filled place wouldn't be heaven for them. Maybe Hitler went to a heaven, I don't know, but why assume that because one believes that there is a heaven, that one would have to spend eternity with people one hates?

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:21 am
by Maverick13
luckily my place in Hell was booked long ago ;-)

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:46 am
by Skye1013
Pyrea wrote:Personally I believe that if you believe in a heaven and a God, whichever deity it is you choose to worship, then you will get there. This heaven need not be the same place that other people go - maybe they don't like cheese and you love the stuff, a cheese filled place wouldn't be heaven for them. Maybe Hitler went to a heaven, I don't know, but why assume that because one believes that there is a heaven, that one would have to spend eternity with people one hates?

While I don't generally make a habit of pulling beliefs from intentional works of fiction (I'm not saying the Bible is, one way or the other,) but Piers Anthony wrote a series of books called the Incarnations of Immortality, and the first book dealt with the Incarnation of Death. One of the things Death learned after taking up the mantle was that not everyone's souls go to the same place. It all depends on your beliefs. The example was, he was attempting to retrieve the soul of a non-believer, but the soul just disappated instead of him being able to take it to purgatory. I think it's an interesting way to look at things, and since nobody truly knows for sure, it's entirely possible things like that happen.

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:03 am
by Fivelives
Bored at work and browsing through xkcd brought up this random pick:

Image