Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

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Intentions or Actions

Poll ended at Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:49 am

Intentions
4
8%
Actions
15
31%
CBH
29
60%
 
Total votes : 48

Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

Postby Hokahey » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:00 am

Personally, I'm generally inclined toward actions. Intent is nice, but it really has no effect on anything outside of your own personal perception of events, and perhaps your conscience. I strongly doubt God cares in the slightest fashion about your intentions, because they are effectively meaningless.

The circumstances involved in you taking some actions (i.e. killing someone to protect yourself) may or not be something considered. If it is, how likely is it that a "self defense" clause is an automatic "get out of Hell free"? We're talking about a supreme omniscient and omnipotent being, and you may have violated their rules of what is/isn't supposed to happen. How likely do you think it really is that this being gives a rat's ass about your intentions?

Then again, I'm not really sold on there being a "Heaven" or "Hell" in the afterlife.
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Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

Postby Io.Draco » Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:18 am

I would argue both are quite equally important when judging an individual.
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Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

Postby Fivelives » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:17 am

There's a common misconception that the 5th commandment is "thou shalt not kill", when it's "thou shalt not commit murder". There's a distinct difference between killing (which may or may not be justified, e.g. self-defense or war) and murder (which is never justified - murder is the intentional ending of a human life for no valid reason. "I just didn't like them/I felt like it" isn't a valid reason).

Otherwise? Everyone would be going to hell. "kill" is too broad a term - if you've ever stepped on a bug, you've killed and are therefore hellbound.
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Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

Postby bldavis » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:07 am

Fivelives wrote:There's a common misconception that the 5th commandment is "thou shalt not kill", when it's "thou shalt not commit murder". There's a distinct difference between killing (which may or may not be justified, e.g. self-defense or war) and murder (which is never justified - murder is the intentional ending of a human life for no valid reason. "I just didn't like them/I felt like it" isn't a valid reason).

Otherwise? Everyone would be going to hell. "kill" is too broad a term - if you've ever stepped on a bug, you've killed and are therefore hellbound.


hmm maybe thats how
Jehova Witnesses can say only 140k are getting into heaven.....

on a side note, had them come by the house the other day, told me that and they are trying to save me.

i looked at them and said, ok what if i am the one that takes your spot?
if i believed that only 140k souls would be saved, then i would be sitting on my ass, not out trying to convince other ppl to join my religion
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Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

Postby Njall » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:15 am

So, we're given a choice of being damned Calvinist, a damned Papist, or a damned Sybarite.
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Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

Postby crazyharry » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:20 am

bldavis wrote:
Fivelives wrote:There's a common misconception that the 5th commandment is "thou shalt not kill", when it's "thou shalt not commit murder". There's a distinct difference between killing (which may or may not be justified, e.g. self-defense or war) and murder (which is never justified - murder is the intentional ending of a human life for no valid reason. "I just didn't like them/I felt like it" isn't a valid reason).

Otherwise? Everyone would be going to hell. "kill" is too broad a term - if you've ever stepped on a bug, you've killed and are therefore hellbound.


hmm maybe thats how
Jehova Witnesses can say only 140k are getting into heaven.....

on a side note, had them come by the house the other day, told me that and they are trying to save me.

i looked at them and said, ok what if i am the one that takes your spot?
if i believed that only 140k souls would be saved, then i would be sitting on my ass, not out trying to convince other ppl to join my religion


I have a friend who is a JW and he explained it to me thus.

144k get to go to heaven and spend eternity praising jesus and the rest get reborn on to a 'cleansed' version of earth where they get to spend eternity praising jesus.
JW's dont believe in hell so if you are a non believer you just cease to exist.
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Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

Postby Io.Draco » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:43 pm

Fivelives wrote:There's a common misconception that the 5th commandment is "thou shalt not kill", when it's "thou shalt not commit murder". There's a distinct difference between killing (which may or may not be justified, e.g. self-defense or war) and murder (which is never justified - murder is the intentional ending of a human life for no valid reason. "I just didn't like them/I felt like it" isn't a valid reason).

Otherwise? Everyone would be going to hell. "kill" is too broad a term - if you've ever stepped on a bug, you've killed and are therefore hellbound.


The Catholic's Church take on that is to not kill. Islam's take is to not murder.
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Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

Postby Lightbeard » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:41 pm

Wow the Atheism vs Religion argument has begun already.

Edit: to answer the question. I say Actions.
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Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

Postby Mcduffie » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:09 pm

If the military "loses" a nuclear device (stolen) it's supposed to be gotten back at all costs. Meaning that if innocent bystanders are in the way, they die.

Just a "fun to know" fact. Since someone brought up "saving 1 for 1000."

As to the OP, I don't believe in heaven. And toying with the "what ifs" is better time spent for me to think about boobs.
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Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

Postby Fivelives » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:55 pm

Io.Draco wrote:
Fivelives wrote:There's a common misconception that the 5th commandment is "thou shalt not kill", when it's "thou shalt not commit murder". There's a distinct difference between killing (which may or may not be justified, e.g. self-defense or war) and murder (which is never justified - murder is the intentional ending of a human life for no valid reason. "I just didn't like them/I felt like it" isn't a valid reason).

Otherwise? Everyone would be going to hell. "kill" is too broad a term - if you've ever stepped on a bug, you've killed and are therefore hellbound.


The Catholic's Church take on that is to not kill. Islam's take is to not murder.


Matthew 19:16-22 wrote:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.


Pretty sure it's murder in both of the branches of Christianity.

Leviticus 19:16 wrote:16 You shall not go around as a slanderer among your people, and you shall not stand up against the life of your neighbor: I am the LORD.


I'm also pretty sure that it doesn't say "do not kill" anywhere in the bible as it refers to commandments or sins, but is rather specific on that whole murder thing.

Even the NKJ version lists it as "thou shalt do no murder".
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Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

Postby Io.Draco » Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:56 am

Pretty sure it's murder in both of the branches of Christianity.


Nope. For the Lutherans it's not to murder, for the Catholics and Orthodox it's not kill. I just checked my own bible and on the net so I am pretty damned sure it is so. That said, you are allowed to act in self-defense as the commandment relates to preserving life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_d ... mmandments
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Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

Postby Njall » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:15 am

Mcduffie wrote:If the military "loses" a nuclear device (stolen) it's supposed to be gotten back at all costs. Meaning that if innocent bystanders are in the way, they die.

Just a "fun to know" fact. Since someone brought up "saving 1 for 1000."


Yes. And your point is? Would you prefer the alternative? Truly?
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Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

Postby Fivelives » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:46 pm

Io.Draco wrote:
Pretty sure it's murder in both of the branches of Christianity.


Nope. For the Lutherans it's not to murder, for the Catholics and Orthodox it's not kill. I just checked my own bible and on the net so I am pretty damned sure it is so. That said, you are allowed to act in self-defense as the commandment relates to preserving life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_d ... mmandments


Catechism is children's bible school. They don't introduce it as "murder" because children are inherently innocent, and introducing them to the concept of murder would violate that innocence - at least after age 7. Anything prior to the 7th birthday isn't even considered a sin by the christian dogma, assuming that they were baptised to atone for original sin.

Oh, and catechism starts at 7 and ends with confirmation at age 12, then first communion sometime after that. It's been awhile since I attended seminary, but I want to say first communion is around 14-16 years old.

But yeah, I can look in any copy of the bible you'd like me to look in, but every translation is specific on the "murder" vs "kill" wording.

NIV
Exodus 20:10-17 wrote:10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”


NKJ
Exodus 20:10-17 wrote:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
12 “ Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
13 “You shall not murder.
14 “You shall not commit adultery.
15 “You shall not steal.
16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”


KJV

I ... actually stand corrected here. The King James Version of the bible uses "Thou shalt not kill" in Exodus, but all other references (in Matthew and Leviticus mainly) refer to murder instead of the broader "kill".

Oh, and I'm not normally one to harp on how unreliable wikipedia is (because it's fairly reliable - at least as reliable as printed encyclopedias, if not moreso), but for religious arguments, I'd suggest not using it. Religion isn't fact, it's faith, something that's different for everyone.
Last edited by Fivelives on Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

Postby Koatanga » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:50 pm

Fivelives wrote:There's a common misconception that the 5th commandment is "thou shalt not kill", when it's "thou shalt not commit murder". There's a distinct difference between killing (which may or may not be justified, e.g. self-defense or war) and murder (which is never justified - murder is the intentional ending of a human life for no valid reason. "I just didn't like them/I felt like it" isn't a valid reason).

Fortunately, "we completely fail at diplomacy" is a valid reason to kill people, otherwise armies would kinda be out of business.
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Re: Before the gates of Heaven (poll fixed)

Postby Ruex » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:38 pm

Earlier forms of the proverb omit the first three words. Cf. [St. Francis de sales, Letter lxxiv.] le proverbe tiré de notre saint Bernard, ‘L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés ou désirs’, the proverb taken from our St. Bernard, ‘Hell is full of good intentions or desires.’

Hell is full of good desires.
[1574 E. Hellowes tr. Guevara's Epistles 205]

It is a saying among Divines, that Hell is full of good Intentions, and Meanings.
[1654 R. Whitlock Observations on Manners of English 203]

It is a true saying,‘Hell is paved with good intentions’.
[1736 Wesley Journal 10 July (1910) I. i. 246]

I shall have nothing to hand in, except intentions,—what they say the road to the wrong place is paved with.
[1847 J. A. Froude Shadows of Clouds ix.]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
[1855 H. G. Bohn Hand-Book of Proverbs 514]
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