$10,000+ fine for deciding not to fly after all?

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Re: $10,000+ fine for deciding not to fly after all?

Postby knaughty » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:12 pm

Jabari wrote:Is strip-searching and grabbing the crotch of 5-year-old boys really making us safer?

It won't be too long until a parent goes "Mortal Kombat" on a TSA goon. Amazed it hasn't happened yet.

^^ slightly snipped.

One of the reasons I've decided to stop travelling to the US is the video of the three-year-old girl having a fit while being groped by some stupid TSA bitch.

The end result of me being in that situation would, if I was really lucky, end up with me being deported straight back to Australia.

More likely, I'd end up in jail and/or tasered to death for losing it and going ballistic.

I mean, you think it's bad for US Citizens - try being a foreign tourist who's coming to you country to give you money - you have no rights at all.
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Re: $10,000+ fine for deciding not to fly after all?

Postby Adryl » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:22 pm

Lightbeard wrote:[quote="Koatanga"

Where do you draw the line, though? At some point logic must prevail. Personally I would draw it such that loaded handguns would be a no, but toenail clippers would be OK. Why? Because I see no reasonable way that toenail clippers would endanger the flight more than the plastic knife served with the in-flight meal.

As many have pointed out here, locking the cockpit door does heaps more to protect passengers than harrassing them at the gate.

It's not like house insurance - it's like taking out insurance againt damage caused to your house by hummingbirds.

Remove the security-theatre screening process, and use the money on some beagles. They'll do a hell of a lot better job than scanners will, and they won't make it public whether Lady Gaga is a chick or a dude, for any price.

The Lady gaga thing is a bit facetious, but I know a man who has been battling prostate cancer who has lost a fair portion of his private anatomy. I don't think he should be required to display that to strangers in order to board a flight.

The bottom line is that you give up your freedom. Isn't that the goal of the terrorists? Isn't that just giving up?


I haven't been to an airport for a while but aren't dogs still widely used along with the other measures?[/quote]

Yes, search dogs has been a staple in airports or at least here. Now I agree, it is WWAAYY overblown (thanks news). Now I'm not saying stop any and all metal objects from goin on flight, I'm just saying I want security. Granted my first post is a bit contradictory to this one (I was pissed that day). Yes there is a line, and honestly they are crossing it. A slight pat down (no privates, or inner thighs, etc.) is okay imho. Yes we live in a free country. Yes we have our rights. And these policies impede on them. Yeah it sucks but it's all about the people in power who enforce such laws/policies and such. We may be free but we elected someone who imo has tried hard a shit to change that.
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Re: $10,000+ fine for deciding not to fly after all?

Postby knaughty » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:33 pm

Lightbeard wrote:
Dorvan wrote:There are many, many places in the US more remote from law enforcement and medical attention than a commercial airliner.

I'm not denying what you're saying but I'd appreciate 2-3 examples.

Dorvan gave some towns, but how about any hiking trail you've been walking down for over an hour?

For what it's worth, there's various estimates of 40-80% chance of there being a doctor on board any commercial flight, and on top of that all aircrew have heavy duty first aid training and the sort of first aid equipment you find in an ambulance, not an office first aid kit. Defib kit, heavy duty drugs, etc.
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Re: $10,000+ fine for deciding not to fly after all?

Postby Lightbeard » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:38 pm

Assuming these policies (scanners and pat-downs) get revoked knowing how the media in America works we'll see a wave of "SECURITY ISN'T TIGHT ENOUGH"
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Re: $10,000+ fine for deciding not to fly after all?

Postby knaughty » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:46 am

Lightbeard wrote:Assuming these policies (scanners and pat-downs) get revoked knowing how the media in America works we'll see a wave of "SECURITY ISN'T TIGHT ENOUGH"


Seriously, there has already been a suicide bomber who stuffed the bomb up his arse. Now, in that case, the bomb wasn't very effective because:

(1) There's a limit to how big a bomb you can fit up your arse without GOATSE levels of training.
(2) He set it of "in-situ", and therefore absorbed most of the force personally.

Slight adjustment to plan:

(Step 1) Poop it out first.
(Step 2) Use it in a large, fragile, pressurised doohickey of some sort, ideally one that's packed with a few hundred Americans and also full of important electronic and hydraulic components that can be relatively easily damaged. Can anyone think if something suitable?

OK, when are the TSA pulling out the KY to go with the rubber gloves?

Your media fly enough - maybe they'll change their tune after the SO complains something else isn't "tight enough" due to repeated "modified enhanced pat-downs".
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Re: $10,000+ fine for deciding not to fly after all?

Postby Fridmarr » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:28 am

Wow, thanks for all that imagery.
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Re: $10,000+ fine for deciding not to fly after all?

Postby Fivelives » Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:12 am

theckhd wrote:
Fivelives wrote:You can make a one or two shot derringer type pistol out of wood or cast ceramic. John Dillinger made one and used it to escape from prison in 1934.

Thing is this, though: how would you get the rounds past the sniffer dogs? They can detect and alert to gunpowder. So even if you were to bring a wooden gun and try to get it through the checkpoint, you wouldn't be able to sneak by with ammunition for it.

But that still requires gunpowder. I have trouble believing that anyone short of MacGuyver would be able to build a functioning projectile weapon that was even remotely dangerous using a rubber band as the propulsion mechanism.

I suppose you could put the pilot's eye out, if the cabin weren't locked... :roll:


That's kind of what my point is - even if you can make a firearm that'll pass through the metal detectors, you still wouldn't be able to get it past a sniffer dog. On the other hand, ammunition is really easy to sneak past people with an x-ray machine in your carry-on luggage. Hell, I've even done it accidentally before.
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Re: $10,000+ fine for deciding not to fly after all?

Postby Fivelives » Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:21 am

knaughty wrote:
Lightbeard wrote:
Dorvan wrote:There are many, many places in the US more remote from law enforcement and medical attention than a commercial airliner.

I'm not denying what you're saying but I'd appreciate 2-3 examples.

Dorvan gave some towns, but how about any hiking trail you've been walking down for over an hour?

For what it's worth, there's various estimates of 40-80% chance of there being a doctor on board any commercial flight, and on top of that all aircrew have heavy duty first aid training and the sort of first aid equipment you find in an ambulance, not an office first aid kit. Defib kit, heavy duty drugs, etc.


Err, you mean me :P

Thanks for agreeing with some of my points from earlier, though, heh. And, depending on when the study is done (what time of year, etc), the studies point to anywhere from 8% to 86% chance that a doctor will be on any given flight. Most likely during holiday travel, least likely during the trough seasons (between christmas and new year, for example).

Even still, there are companies like Med Air and Medlink that specifically handle in-flight medical care. No matter how much training the flight crew receives (unless they're nurse practitioners, at the least), they can't give a patient any of the drugs that they keep in their first aid kit. They can, however, hook the person up to the Med Air or Medlink telemetry machine in their kit and have the doctor tell them "Ok, now here's what you do ... "

It's the same on our flights - we're in constant contact with the receiving team from the time we pick up a patient to the time we do the handoff, and despite having nurses and (overtrained) paramedics in flight, we still need the receiving doctor to authorize any medical procedure being performed in flight except for "rescue" care (defibrilation, CPR, etc). In practice, it's usually just us informing the doc of what we're doing, but the regulations are there to protect us and the receiving team.
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Re: $10,000+ fine for deciding not to fly after all?

Postby knaughty » Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:24 am

Fivelives wrote: we still need the receiving doctor to authorize any medical procedure being performed in flight except for "rescue" care (defibrilation, CPR, etc).


But "rescue/emergency" care is all you need. If you're on a commercial flight on a full-sized aircraft, you're more or less IN an ambulance that happens to contain a few hundred people.

You're under an hour from a hospital if your condition is serious enough to divert the plane to the nearest airport/hospital.

If CPR, defib and (doctor authorised) emergency drugs aren't going to tide you over until they can land the plane and get you to a hospital, well, if you'd been at home in your lounge room you'd be dead as well.
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Re: $10,000+ fine for deciding not to fly after all?

Postby Fivelives » Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:08 am

Knaughty speaketh truth.
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Re: $10,000+ fine for deciding not to fly after all?

Postby Jabari » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:23 am

Lightening up the thread a bit:

NEW TSA SLOGANS

Grope discounts available.

Can't see London, can't see France, unless we see your underpants.

If we did our job any better, we'd have to buy you dinner first.

Only we know if Lady Gaga is really a lady.

Don't worry, my hands are still warm from the last guy.

Throw a few back at the airport Chili's and you won't even notice.

Wanna fly? Drop your fly.

We are now free to move about your pants

We rub you the wrong way, so you can be on your way.

It's not a grope. It's a freedom pat.

When in doubt, we make you whip it out.

TSA: Touchin', Squeezin', Arrestin'

You were a virgin.

We handle more packages than the USPS

The TSA isn't silly, they just want to inspect your willy

Stroke of the hand, law of the land

No Shirt, No Shoes, No Problem

Can you feel me now?
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Re: $10,000+ fine for deciding not to fly after all?

Postby Shoju » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:29 am

Fridmarr wrote:
That emphasis is cool and all, in fact the state police department in the part of the nation that you live in (Virginia according to your IP address) actually used similar emphasis on their website. It's almost like they were screaming, you are wrong Shoju.
[/quote]

Never trust an IP address. I live farther north than that. I live in Ohio, rendering the bulk of your post irrelevant as a rebuttal(sorry :().

While the Ohio State Highway Patrol has it's own academy, the city, and surrounding cities where I live require you to have completed an Associates of Criminal Justice, or the local Police Academy at a local 2 year college, or at an accredited program in the surrounding counties (there are 2 other programs in a 50 mile radius) prior applying (A near future graduation date will suffice). If you want to talk about the area of the state i live in, and the differences between my city, surrounding cities, and the county that I live in, we can do that via PM. I live in a city of 52,000, a county of ~90,000. We do not have nor need the "openness" of the employment policies of LA, Ohio State Highway Patrol, or Virginia. We are far more selective of the people who become Peace Officers, something that has become more and more selective over the past 20 years as we have been worked to overcome the scandals and corruption that almost brought this area to its knees in the 1970's, and to a lesser extent in the 1980's. Since 1990 there has been a marked increase in the requirements to be in Law Enforcement in the area, and it has cleaned up a large majority of the problems within the departemnts. While we haven't been scandal free for 20 years, the amount of problems that we have faced in that time are drastically reduced as opposed to before 1990.

Now, can we please stop pissing back and forth? Police Officers / State Police and the like have far more stringent guidelines, even for those who offer on the job training.

I will grant you that you need to fix the system as well as raising employment standards, that's true, which is why I mentioned the entire agency as what I have a problem with. This still will not completely fix the problem. You talk about how hard it is to get a job with them, I reviewed the information and application/screening guidelines on the TSA website, and then reviewed the requirements on the Ohio's State Highway Patrol and I'm pretty sure that the OHSP wins the "who makes sure that they don't have losers" portion of the application process. The fact of the matter is, The TSA standards and processes do not stand up to the similar standards of the police/law enforcement agencies of the USA when examined closely.

Even looking over the examples that you have given, the one that I have submitted, and my local Police Departments guidelines, You have to pass the Civil Service Test prior to even being considered for a Police Department, a requirement currently lacking from the TSA jobs.

Look at the background checks, the psych profiles, the battery of tests. The differences are there. When you look at them on a surface level, they appear to be very similar, but when you start going through the details, and examining the policies at a more detailed level, the TSA screening process/job requirements just don't stack up.
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Re: $10,000+ fine for deciding not to fly after all?

Postby Fivelives » Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:35 am

The standard government background check isn't very good. They only check the things that you tell them about - so if you don't tell them about all the bad shit, they won't find out about it.
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Re: $10,000+ fine for deciding not to fly after all?

Postby sahiel » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:12 am

Fivelives wrote:The standard government background check isn't very good. They only check the things that you tell them about - so if you don't tell them about all the bad shit, they won't find out about it.

Depends what part of the govt. to be honest, the State Dept. background check I had to go through was incredibly thorough, from a number of psych tests, full medical, police report saying I had no criminal record and ranging all the way back through every job I'd had to my schooling and numerous character witnesses of 'good standing' (I ended up using military officers).
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Re: $10,000+ fine for deciding not to fly after all?

Postby Fivelives » Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:43 am

It's the same check they use to get into the military. Sounds like you had the government security clearance check - the one where they actually follow up with your references and such. Walk into any recruiting office and tell them you got popped for marijuana possession or have a history of a psychological condition that required medication in another state, they'll (almost) all tell you the same thing: "Just don't put that on your paperwork".

They don't go in depth with everyone unless your job requires a security clearance. Then they'll check "standard" things that don't come up in a background check, like medical records and unsealing juvenile records.
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