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Re: Fun Supreme Court Arguments

Postby Fivelives » Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:10 pm

Drugs and alcohol have nothing to do with the first amendment, to begin with. There's also the minor fact that (obviously) the porn, alcohol and tobacco market, let alone illegal drug market, won't suffer in the slightest from regulatory laws.

The video game industry however, is another beast entirely. Think about it this way - you play WoW, right? Well, if video games were "regulated", then WoW wouldn't exist. Neither would Blizzard. Diablo, Starcraft and Warcraft would never have been made, and we'd all be playing Hello Kitty Island Adventure style games instead.

See, with all of the examples you mentioned (save perhaps porn), there is a clear dividing line between what's right and what's wrong. With video games, there is no clear dividing line - there are some obvious examples of "just plain wrong", granted, but there are far more games that fall in a gray area that's impossible to legislate with the American system. Precedent is too powerful here, and one game being judged violent and "bannable" will lead to more and more games being judged violent and bannable based on this one single Supreme Court decision.

There are a lot of things wrong with America, I'll be the first to admit. But please, don't let this issue become one of them.
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Re: Fun Supreme Court Arguments

Postby duruk » Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:40 am

Shoju wrote:Parenting is tough. Really tough. And instead of stepping up, some people check out. It sucks. My 13 year old son thinks I'm the worst thing in the world right now because I took his cell phone away.


Tell him you'll keep getting worse and worse until about the age of twenty, and then you'll start to be cool again. We do that to our kids, and it annoys and confuses them no end. They always assume that we will change ;)

When the 14 year old boy is throwing tantrums, I remind him that he's acting like a 3 year old, and then he gets even more mad. Great fun ;)
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Re: Fun Supreme Court Arguments

Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:49 am

To add to the cloud of "how the hell can this be classified", for a given value of violence (in this example, killing other sentient beings) Sailor Moon is much more violent than, say, Wolverine.

The very core of what people want to quantify and regulate in videogames is about as variably interpreted as the games themselves.
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Re: Fun Supreme Court Arguments

Postby Fivelives » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:07 am

The guys fighting the law should just walk into court and play the entire episode of Penn & Teller: Bullshit on violent video games.

ESPECIALLY the part where the kid burst into tears after firing a real weapon, compared to how happy he was playing an FPS.
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Re: Fun Supreme Court Arguments

Postby Snake-Aes » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:30 am

Fivelives wrote:The guys fighting the law should just walk into court and play the entire episode of Penn & Teller: Bullshit on violent video games.

ESPECIALLY the part where the kid burst into tears after firing a real weapon, compared to how happy he was playing an FPS.

In the span of a single year I have seen the very same food products being defined as "dangerous to your health" and, soon after "also reduces bad cholesterol". Our minds take that to extreme levels. GTA glorifies beating people up and robbing cars. GTA players also happen to have less stress breakdowns. Playing too much videogames leaves you with the health of a 60-years-old person, but some of the best hand-eye coordinations sprout from these people, improving the learning process of surgeons. Violent games touch on social stigmas, but gamers have greater control of their dreams and a higher occurrence of lucid dreaming, which makes for interesting studies...
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Re: Fun Supreme Court Arguments

Postby Melathys » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:19 am

duruk wrote:
Shoju wrote:Parenting is tough. Really tough. And instead of stepping up, some people check out. It sucks. My 13 year old son thinks I'm the worst thing in the world right now because I took his cell phone away.


Tell him you'll keep getting worse and worse until about the age of twenty, and then you'll start to be cool again. We do that to our kids, and it annoys and confuses them no end. They always assume that we will change ;)

When the 14 year old boy is throwing tantrums, I remind him that he's acting like a 3 year old, and then he gets even more mad. Great fun ;)


thing is though, when your kid is a kid, you be their parent, and they hate you, much as I did my parents. But now that I'm older, my parents are my best friends. My parents didn't try to be my best friend growing up, so they don't have to try to be my parents now that I'm an adult. I hear all too often how some people have to take care of their kids all the time, even when they're grown.

I would look at it like this. Would I rather be a parent for 18-20 years and then have the rest of their lives to be their friend? or would I rather try to be their friend for 18 years, and then have to be their parent for the rest of their lives?

as for tantrums. My mom is a teacher, here's what she does (and it generally works). She pulls the kid aside and asks "What is it that you want?" this alone often shuts them up, as they don't really know what they want, and are confounded when asked to put it into words. Then she asks "Is what you're doing helping you get what you want?" most often the answer is no. so then "What can you do that would help you get what you want?".
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Re: Fun Supreme Court Arguments

Postby Shoju » Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:42 pm

duruk wrote:
Shoju wrote:Parenting is tough. Really tough. And instead of stepping up, some people check out. It sucks. My 13 year old son thinks I'm the worst thing in the world right now because I took his cell phone away.


Tell him you'll keep getting worse and worse until about the age of twenty, and then you'll start to be cool again. We do that to our kids, and it annoys and confuses them no end. They always assume that we will change ;)

When the 14 year old boy is throwing tantrums, I remind him that he's acting like a 3 year old, and then he gets even more mad. Great fun ;)


My dad said something great to me a couple of years ago about this:

"When you turned 13, I swear it was like aliens came down, sucked out your brain, and let you wander around without it for about 8 years. Shortly after your 21st birthday, they showed up, and put it back"

Now that my oldest has turned 13, I'm thinking he might be on to something :lol:

Melathys wrote:thing is though, when your kid is a kid, you be their parent, and they hate you, much as I did my parents. But now that I'm older, my parents are my best friends. My parents didn't try to be my best friend growing up, so they don't have to try to be my parents now that I'm an adult. I hear all too often how some people have to take care of their kids all the time, even when they're grown.

I would look at it like this. Would I rather be a parent for 18-20 years and then have the rest of their lives to be their friend? or would I rather try to be their friend for 18 years, and then have to be their parent for the rest of their lives?

as for tantrums. My mom is a teacher, here's what she does (and it generally works). She pulls the kid aside and asks "What is it that you want?" this alone often shuts them up, as they don't really know what they want, and are confounded when asked to put it into words. Then she asks "Is what you're doing helping you get what you want?" most often the answer is no. so then "What can you do that would help you get what you want?".



This is what is missing from a lot of people. I don't know why, but I see so many parents now trying to be their kids best friend. My parents weren't my best friend. I hated them. I hated the religious upbringing, I hated the insane rules, and I rebelled. Looking back, had I tried to reason with my parents, and speak to them instead of raging at them, I probably could have spared myself a TON of grief.

As far as rulings about video games, and other controlled/regulated items:

The punishments, IMO are far too lax.

In Ohio, if you get busted selling alcohol to a minor, you get fined 3 times before they have a hearing to revoke your liquor license. The fine is "steep", but a steep fine isn't a deterrent if it doesn't dig into the profits. A business here locally is KNOWN as the place to buy booze underage. A 10k fine once a year when they inevitably get caught still isn't eating into the bottom line.

If you want to make something off limits to a certain demographic, you need to make sure that the penalties for supplying to the demographic are enough of a deterrent.

How do you apply this to video games? I don't know. Do I think that there should be something in place to try and stop it? Yes, I just don't know what.
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Re: Fun Supreme Court Arguments

Postby Korola » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:35 pm

It is my right to raise my child. I enjoy being a parent. My attitude is this; do whatever you want - it won't stop me from being his parent.
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Re: Fun Supreme Court Arguments

Postby Fivelives » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:02 pm

Shoju wrote:In Ohio...


Well there's yer problem!
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Re: Fun Supreme Court Arguments

Postby Amirya » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:04 pm

I am happy to have precisely 0 children.

But even if I wanted them, I wouldn't have them.

You ever realise if you go into a grocery store, and a kid is throwing a tantrum because the parent said no to candy, people huff and sigh, "make your kid shut up, you're a terrible parent, blah blah blah"

If you give said child a single whack to the butt for discipline, "ZOMG CALL 911 IT'S CHILD ABUSE OVER THERE"
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Re: Fun Supreme Court Arguments

Postby Fivelives » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:07 pm

That's why you teach them to fear the Wrath of Mom. "You want to misbehave in public? Fine. Just wait til we get home, mister (or missus)."

Teach them that from a young age, and you'll have the politest, most well-behaved children anyone's ever seen in a store or restaurant.
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Re: Fun Supreme Court Arguments

Postby Korola » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:25 pm

Amirya wrote:I am happy to have precisely 0 children.

But even if I wanted them, I wouldn't have them.

You ever realise if you go into a grocery store, and a kid is throwing a tantrum because the parent said no to candy, people huff and sigh, "make your kid shut up, you're a terrible parent, blah blah blah"

If you give said child a single whack to the butt for discipline, "ZOMG CALL 911 IT'S CHILD ABUSE OVER THERE"


I have learned as a parent -

*no one raises their child the same
*other people don't have to raise your child
*<insert product here> doesn't really get chewing gum out of hair
*human feces will not "melt" in the bath tub if you turn the hot water on (it has to be physically removed)
*Sponge Bob does not encourage gay lifestyle like the church say he do
*At 2 it is funny for them to run around without pants on - at 10 it is pretty creepy
*Just because someone else's kid was potty trained at 3, doesn't mean you're doing something wrong if yours is 4 and still craps his pants
*When he succeeds, you were a part of it
*When he fails, you were a part of that too
*It hurts a lot more when someone cuts your child down than it ever hurt you to be insulted in the same way
*When he hurts - it is you he is crying for
*When he is happy - it is you that he shares it with

I wouldn't trade all my great memories as a parent for anything in the world.
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Re: Fun Supreme Court Arguments

Postby Fivelives » Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:57 pm

Raising a child is 90% frustration and 10% awesome. But that 10% is awesome enough that the other 90% doesn't really matter.
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Re: Fun Supreme Court Arguments

Postby Dorvan » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:40 pm

rodos wrote:On the issue of parenting, these kinds of laws actually give more control back to the parent. You can send your kid to the game shop with $50 they got for their birthday and be satisfied that they'll come back with something appropriate. If they want to buy a restricted game, they have to tell you about it and take you along, so you get a chance to review the content.


Why is this needed over the current system? Talk to your kid about what they're thinking of getting, ask them to show you what they got. If they got something inappropriate you can return it. If they got something with an inappropriate rating and made it nonreturnable, you confiscate it and they get nothing.

I'm not seeing what is fixed by this law.
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Re: Fun Supreme Court Arguments

Postby Dianora » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:10 pm

Dorvan wrote:
rodos wrote:On the issue of parenting, these kinds of laws actually give more control back to the parent. You can send your kid to the game shop with $50 they got for their birthday and be satisfied that they'll come back with something appropriate. If they want to buy a restricted game, they have to tell you about it and take you along, so you get a chance to review the content.


Why is this needed over the current system? Talk to your kid about what they're thinking of getting, ask them to show you what they got. If they got something inappropriate you can return it. If they got something with an inappropriate rating and made it nonreturnable, you confiscate it and they get nothing.

I'm not seeing what is fixed by this law.


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