Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Passionario » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:05 am

hoho wrote:I don't get it why people would be against mosque near that place. It was the US (shadow) government itself that blew these buildings up, after all. It should be common knowledge!

/strengthens the tinfoil hat

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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Invisusira » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:14 am

Fivelives wrote:I see no problem with it. This might sound trite, but if we allow terrorism to impinge on our rights and freedoms as Americans, then "the terrorists win".

This is actually a pretty good point. Reminds me of a Penn & Teller episode where they were talking about all the BS surrounding the 9/11 memorial site. They proposed a couple ridiculous options, and then said, "no, you know what? THIS would be the best option" and unveiled a model of the WTC, exactly like it used to be. "Business as usual. Nothing says "fuck you" to the terrorists by showing them that what they do doesn't affect us - we just keep going on." (Quotes aren't exact, but basically what they said as it's been a while since that episode.)
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:25 am

Barathorn wrote:If you rub someones face in a tragic loss of life then more fool you is all I am saying. History teaches us this leads to bad things happening.


I think this "rub it in someone's face" line of argument is a bit weak. Islam did not declare war on the US. "Brown people" did not declare war on the US. Saudi Arabia and Iran have not declared war on the US. A small organization that has some outrageous, radical religious beliefs committed a terrorist act.

Unless those terrorists decide to go and build a 9-11 theme park a few blocks from ground zero, I don't see how anyone is rubbing anything in anyone else's face. If you can show that the guy behind it has direct ties to terrorist organizations, then maybe it could be construed as such. But from what I've seen, those accusations are built on pretty weak ground and little or no evidence.

But taken at face value, this guy is building a church. That's it. I'm sure there's absolutely no precedent for wanting to put churches near sites of great trauma. If you want a clear analogy, it's basically the same as if the Tea Partyists or Branch Davidians decided to bomb Tehran. Would you think it insensitive of the Catholic Church to try and open a small chapel nearby?

What sickens me is that the vast majority of Americans do just take this at face value, and still oppose it. It shows that we've done an exceptionally good job of prejudicing the general public against Islam. You wouldn't see this sort of backlash if they were opening a temple, synagogue, or any other sort of church, even if it was a radical Christian sect. But as soon as someone says "mosque," the first thing people jump to is "the terrorists are rubbing it in our faces."
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Shoju » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:30 am

The thing is, If you look back over history, Christians who waged war did very similar things when they went into some place that they didn't agree with . They went in destroyed the sacred things and built their own on top of it.

This, is a part of war. The U.S. has done it, Christians have done it in the name of god, and their beliefs.

The guy is taking money from Iran and Saudi Arabia because............................... Oh my god they have some of the largest muslim populations in the world.

Fundamentalist government views in the middle east to not equal religious doctrine. While Islam as a whole is decidedly more 'old testament' over issues of infidelity and homosexuality, loss of life over that is generally not an accepted method of dealing with homosexuality (I could be wrong here, and will be consulting with a devout muslim. I don't think I am though)

We see it as rubbing our nose in it. They see it as a building in a city with a high concentration of people who practice their faith. We are the ones being hyper sensitive to it, while they have been trying very hard this year to make their holiday not a problem because the lunar calendar that they follow puts it so close to the 11th.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:34 am

Shoju wrote:The thing is, If you look back over history, Christians who waged war did very similar things when they went into some place that they didn't agree with . They went in destroyed the sacred things and built their own on top of it.

This, is a part of war. The U.S. has done it, Christians have done it in the name of god, and their beliefs.

What part of "Islam did not declare war on the US" was unclear?

I mean, I agree with the rest of your post. But comments like these, despite being true, don't really have any place in the discussion. If anything they do more harm than good, because you're implicitly connecting the current situation with "Islam waging war on America."
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby hoho » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:36 am

theckhd wrote:"Islam waging war on America."
Technically it's the other way around :)
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Barathorn » Thu Aug 19, 2010 5:58 am

theckhd wrote:
Barathorn wrote:If you rub someones face in a tragic loss of life then more fool you is all I am saying. History teaches us this leads to bad things happening.


I think this "rub it in someone's face" line of argument is a bit weak.


I snipped your post and while I don't really have any issues with what you wrote I just feel to describe an argument around something so tragic as weak is an injustice in itself.

That is just my point of view on it.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Fivelives » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:04 am

Invisusira wrote:
Fivelives wrote:I see no problem with it. This might sound trite, but if we allow terrorism to impinge on our rights and freedoms as Americans, then "the terrorists win".

This is actually a pretty good point. Reminds me of a Penn & Teller episode where they were talking about all the BS surrounding the 9/11 memorial site. They proposed a couple ridiculous options, and then said, "no, you know what? THIS would be the best option" and unveiled a model of the WTC, exactly like it used to be. "Business as usual. Nothing says "fuck you" to the terrorists by showing them that what they do doesn't affect us - we just keep going on." (Quotes aren't exact, but basically what they said as it's been a while since that episode.)


It was season 4 episode 5, I think. And it's available on Netflix instant streaming.

I'm a huge P&T: Bullshit! fan, although I was pretty disappointed when I met them in person. They're assholes - like, serious assholes. The only comedian I've ever met who was a bigger dick than EITHER of those two was Gallagher.

Back on topic - terrorism is designed to scare people and to change the way they behave. Bombing subways makes people avoid the subway; bombing airlines makes people avoid flying. That's how "the terrorists win". By this argument gaining ANY steam at all, the terrorists are winning.

I also have to amend my previous statement a bit: as long as the people that want to build the mosque understand that there are going to be issues with american extremists and other religious fundamentalists and are okay with it, then by all means - let them build there. Nobody has the right to restrict what gets built where, so long as it's properly zoned, and I'm pretty sure that there aren't any zoning restrictions on churches*. I'm not sure that the first amendment should even come into play on the subject, as it doesn't apply (congress shall establish no laws governing the freedom of religion).

Do I think it's a good idea for them to build it there? Probably not. It will be a building doomed to early amateur demolition, just like so many abortion clinics and other controversial workplaces. I wouldn't insure the building, if I were an insurance company; the risk would be just WAY too high.

* There was some controversy over a church that some fundamentalist christian group wanted to build in my area - I forget who - but they caused a minor stink. The city finally told them "Look, you can have the land and you can build your church compound. But, you can't build a steeple and you can't build any building over 2 stories high, so it doesn't 'compete' with the natural views." My town is pretty famous for that, though - they fought Wal-Mart over the company wanting to build a supercenter here. It was eventually allowed it, but they restricted the square footage of the store itself, and required WM to plant a bunch of trees in the middle of the parking lot area.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:38 am

Barathorn wrote:I snipped your post and while I don't really have any issues with what you wrote I just feel to describe an argument around something so tragic as weak is an injustice in itself.

That is just my point of view on it.


I don't understand. I'm pointing out that the argument itself is based on false pretenses. How is it an injustice to point out that because "A" is probably false, the conclusion based on "If A then B" shouldn't be assumed true?
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Shoju » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:11 am

theckhd wrote:
Shoju wrote:The thing is, If you look back over history, Christians who waged war did very similar things when they went into some place that they didn't agree with . They went in destroyed the sacred things and built their own on top of it.

This, is a part of war. The U.S. has done it, Christians have done it in the name of god, and their beliefs.

What part of "Islam did not declare war on the US" was unclear?

I mean, I agree with the rest of your post. But comments like these, despite being true, don't really have any place in the discussion. If anything they do more harm than good, because you're implicitly connecting the current situation with "Islam waging war on America."



Sorry, I thought that my position was really clear from previous posts. It is more of a "Yeah, so what?" type of response that I should have quoted the original post of for context type of thing (this is normally the fall back approach when encountered with the fox news guzzling ideology that wont listen to reality). I completely agree that Islam did not wage war on america. A group of violent extremists waged a terrorist attack on us. It was not meant to insinuate that I in any way shape or form believe that the Islam religion decided to wage war on the United States. I was hoping to gain a response similar to: "Well but thats different" in which I could then spring on them that this too, is indeed a very different situation.

The biggest problem that I have with people who oppose this from a political standpoint, is that they are all in an uproar because an islamic believer, in a city with a large islamic population wants to build an islamc cultural center, that happens to be in close to the site of a terrorist attack made by extremists that are tied to their way of life by name, and name only (thanks to the american media), is accepting money from some donors in some of the largest Islamic countries in the world to do so.

These same people are on board with going into another country, and installing a form of government that is completely foreign and in no way shape or form conducive, or normal for the culture / history / and way of life that these people know.

Now, I'm not saying that Saddam wasn't a bad man, and that Afghanistan wasn't incredibly corrupt. But the reality is, neither of these countries have belief structures, cultural ties to a democratic/republic system, and it runs contrary to the way that they live their life. Then, these people get angry when the plan isn't working right.

Hello? Do you not see the problem here? Democracy/Republic forms of government are not the only answer, even though many people in America think so. We are baffled why these processes are floundering, suffering problems, falling victim to new forms of corruption, but we don't think that maybe reforming these countries in our own image is part of the problem.

Then, these same people wonder why the extremists hate us even more?

Listen, I am all for people enjoying rights and freedoms, living without being oppressed, and able to move on in a society where they don't have to worry about the secret police coming and taking them because little johnny down the street said that they practice witchcraft or whatever other thing will get you whisked off in the middle of the night and never heard from again.

I'm not all for trampling a culture into the ground to make a version of the United States of America V2.0. "BUT WE'RE TRYING TO MAKE LIFE BETTER FOR THEM!" So what if they came and removed our government from the seat of power at the height of its corruption and tried to install a fundamentalist theocracy because "they are just trying to make life better for us".

Back to the Mosque/cultural center side of this, People don't like this because they feel it is 'wrong' or a 'slap in the face' or 'a provocation' or 'an assault on american beliefs' or whatever.

It is only wrong and a slap in the face because the media has done a good job of fear mongering you into believing that the terrorists and the religion of Islam are the same thing.

It isn't a provocation because these people are trying to exorcise their rights to freedom of expression and religion in a country that is supposed to hold these ideals sacred.

It isn't an assault on American Beliefs because they aren't Islamic extremists trying to perpetrate a crime. they are muslims looking to build a fantastic place for themselves.

The Greek Orthodox church comparisons are a ploy by clever journalists and conservatives to anger the general public who don't realize the proximity of the Church Vs. the proximity of the proposed Islamic center, and the insurmountable amount of red tape that it entails. I'm sure that a lot of what is being reported is true, but I'm 100% sure that there are a large amount of details and government issues related to this that aren't being reported.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby katraya » Thu Aug 19, 2010 7:20 am

Good article: http://www.economist.com/node/21009739?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/ar/mosque
I love the Economist.

I have zero problem with the building of the mosque. I am sure there will be issues, and there may well be negative acts committed towards the building and/or the people who congregate there. This will be a very sad thing. My hope, and perhaps this is the hope of the people behind the project, is that over time people will see that the mosque is not some evil thing and it may build tolerance.


Luckily Theck is here to say most of the things I am thinking, but more eloquently than I could.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Dorvan » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:19 am

katraya wrote:Good article: http://www.economist.com/node/21009739?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/ar/mosque
I love the Economist.

I have zero problem with the building of the mosque. I am sure there will be issues, and there may well be negative acts committed towards the building and/or the people who congregate there. This will be a very sad thing. My hope, and perhaps this is the hope of the people behind the project, is that over time people will see that the mosque is not some evil thing and it may build tolerance.


Luckily Theck is here to say most of the things I am thinking, but more eloquently than I could.


The phrase does bring forward one interesting point. This project is not the result of efforts by the local Muslim community, but some outside third party, which I believe certainly has made life more difficult for all involved. However well intended, I think the idea that going through with the project will promote tolerance is rather wrong-headed...tolerance is developed best when communities of people come together, and this issue doesn't seem to have much to do with the local community on either side.

I definitely, however, stand by my opinion that they absolutely have the right to build it, and that the fear-mongering being stirred up by political demagogues is some of the ugliest politicking I've seen in some time (which is saying something given our current politic climate, imo).
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Barathorn » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:27 am

theckhd wrote:
Barathorn wrote:I snipped your post and while I don't really have any issues with what you wrote I just feel to describe an argument around something so tragic as weak is an injustice in itself.

That is just my point of view on it.


I don't understand. I'm pointing out that the argument itself is based on false pretenses. How is it an injustice to point out that because "A" is probably false, the conclusion based on "If A then B" shouldn't be assumed true?


Now I don't understand which point you are disputing? Forgive my lack of understanding. I often seem to have posts misinterpreted by you :wink:

There appears to be a split on people ok with it being there and people definately not ok with it being there amongst those who lost family and friends and that tells me that it shouldn't be there exactly the same as my gut instinct does?

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.d ... -1/SITEMAP - Source.

I was also interested to read that there is already a mixed place of worship in the area for all faiths so I am unsure why anyone would need a seperate place of worship in such an emotional area. If you want to bond together and heal wounds then worship and work together, don't be insensitive about the feelings of those who lost family and friends by building something that sows/feeds any potential seed of anger.

This isn't a post about politics and scaremongering. It is a post asking for respect for those still grieving from a horrific event. I think those peoples feelings are what counts until time gradually heals this wound.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Rachmaninoff » Thu Aug 19, 2010 8:38 am

hoho wrote:I don't get it why people would be against mosque near that place. It was the US (shadow) government itself that blew these buildings up, after all. It should be common knowledge!

/strengthens the tinfoil hat

I've been watching ALOT of x-files so I'm really into the whole shadow government thing lately. I believed it before but watching x-files has made it worse.

Now as far as this mosque... it is our constitutional right to practice religion so they have the right to. I've also learned this is also going to be a community center which is (IMO) one of the few truly good things that comes out of religion. A sense of community where like minded people come together for usually good and positive reasons.

The only thing I'm worried about is other people. Lets admit it, people are fucking insane. Some one is going to do something and violence will ensue. I think THAT is the real issue. Its doesn't really have to do with religion it has to do with personal grudges(whether is has been implanted by media or by personal experiences) and people will come together for what they believe is a right or just cause which will result in hate, anger, and violence which is ironically what they think they are fighting against.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby theckhd » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:01 am

Barathorn wrote:Now I don't understand which point you are disputing? Forgive my lack of understanding. I often seem to have posts misinterpreted by you :wink:


My Barathorn translation matrix must be broken. :P

Maybe this is the source of the confusion though - I think we were interpreting the word "argument" slightly differently:
Barathorn wrote:I just feel to describe an argument around something so tragic as weak is an injustice in itself.


I'm not saying that this entire topic is weak. I'm not talking about the argument over whether the mosque is appropriate or not. I'm saying something much more specific - that the following logical argument is weak:

"The mosque should not be built, because it's basically rubbing it in the faces of the survivors."

That specific logical argument is weak, because its premise is weak. A may imply B, but that doesn't mean we should assert B is true in the absence of evidence of A. For an analogy,

"People with ties to <Terrorist Organization based in England> should not be allowed to fly in airplanes"

might be a reasonable statement. Adding Barathorn to the no-fly list because he's from England wouldn't be reasonable though if we had no evidence that Barathorn had any direct ties to said organization.
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