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Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Flex » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:47 pm

Thalia wrote:I don't know if naming the mosque the Cordoba House translates into tolerance.


Much like naming cities after native tribes you forced off their land through war and relocated?
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Thalia » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:01 pm

Flex wrote:
Thalia wrote:I don't know if naming the mosque the Cordoba House translates into tolerance.


Much like naming cities after native tribes you forced off their land through war and relocated?


So what's your point? There is no debate about what you stated, the American government did mistreat and relocate natives. Yep the grass is green too you know. That's a fact that no one argues and has nothing to do with this issue, as was your previous point.

I gave the reasoning behind why I think the name is IMO not the best for it, what does that have to do with living in a city let's say, named Seattle, keeping it's native name? Cordoba House is not being built in Cordoba is it?.

Get back to the real OP's question, unless your point is that you think we should want the mosque to be built because after all, us evil American's forced native tribes off their lands and named cities after them. Every country has sins.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby mew » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:02 pm

Thalia wrote:I don't know if naming the mosque the Cordoba House translates into tolerance.

Cordoba was a decisive battle the Muslims had against Spain before southern Spain fell to them. From there they took the oldest church in the town, destroyed it and built a mosque on top of it. As I said before, that is a practice that has held through the centuries, conquering areas and building Mosques atop the most sacred sites of the enemies they just crushed or had victories over. Naming the Mosque "Cordoba" is either a taunt in itself, or again deft tone and dumb.

Some people feel the Imam, Feisal Abdul Rauf is controversial himself, and the the funding backers behind the mosque have said they are open to taking money from Saudi Arabia and Iran (most of the terrorists who flew into the towers where from Saudi Arabia.

I still think they have the right to build whatever they want on their land, property rights is sacred to me. But honestly, just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. I don't think it's smart because as I stated before there are some people who see as it a big bulls-eye and I don't want any people to be bystanders to any crazies who are extremely opposed to the mosque being built there.

IMO: I personally feel the people behind the mosque building don't care about reconciliation or tolerance, if they did they would take into account the feelings of 70% of the American people. This country though, as far as rights are concerned, are there to protect the minority from the masses. So just because a majority of American's feel it's insulting to build a mosque called "Cordoba", possibly funded by countries that train and harbor terrorists, run by a controversial Imam, doesn't mean they do not hold every right to do it, conversely, those opposed to it have every right to exercise their free speech and be vocal about their distaste to the mosque being built so close to ground zero.

This is very disappointing news to me :( Like the idea of wanting to do the dedication close to 9-11 because of the holiday, I think the name is something that brings unnecessary controversy. They should be extra cautious and be content for now with building the mosque.

After reading the wiki I don't see what's controversial about the guy at all, or am I missing something? It seems like he's been working towards peaceful goals for a while before 9-11. I also don't get how a negative conclusion is drawn from accepting money from Iran and Saudi Arabia. I don't know if you have another reasoning for being against that, but associating Saudi Arabia, with this guy, with the terrorists doesn't make sense.

I agree with you about Flex's comment :V It was a bit pointless, I assumed it was just a bit of a joke and not really meant to be an argument for anything.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Thalia » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:10 pm

Ya I'm just saying some people think he's controversial. That's why I linked his Wiki so you can draw your own conclusions.

The Bush and the Obama administrations both used him as an envoy to mend relations between Muslim and Western cultures.

He advocates Sharia law (I believe) used in the US, which I don't' think is right, but that's about the most controversy I find in him aside from him refusing to acknowledge Hamass as a terrorist organization.

Some believe that taking money from Iran to build a Mosque in the US is in bad taste. Though I'm pretty sure many mosques built in the US take money from Iran to be built even if it's indirectly, and no one makes a fuss about it. I suppose like many Catholic churches take money from Rome. But since its in such a public light right now a lot of people are taking issue with taking money from Iran because it's government openly supports and funds terrorists groups.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Barathorn » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:40 am

The bottom line is that it shouldn't be built in that location.

I cannot see any good come out of building it so close to the location. Regardless of all intentions, it will not promote racial harmony and it will lead to issues. It isn't about denying anyone anything, it is about respect for those who tragically lost their lives and those close to them.

Thousands of examples of human nature over the last 20 years tell me that this is a very bad idea.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Fridmarr » Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:01 am

Brekkie wrote:I think it should be built. Anything else would be morally hypocritical and intellectually dishonest.
In fact, I want them to build it. Let's stop living in a bubble and actually have some real dialogue and cultural exchange.

Well I think there is a legal obligation to allow it. However, there are several million Muslims living in the US. I don't believe the construction of a mosque is going to improve dialog and cultural exchange.

knaughty wrote:Personally, I'm somewhat surprised that the USA didn't go "FUCK YOU, TERRORISTS!" and just rebuild basically the same pair of buildings, except 20 stories taller. You'd be done by now, instead of angsting about it.
A few generations ago, maybe I would have shared your surprise. We've "progressed" beyond that sort of thing now.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby mew » Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:21 am

Barathorn wrote:The bottom line is that it shouldn't be built in that location.

I cannot see any good come out of building it so close to the location. Regardless of all intentions, it will not promote racial harmony and it will lead to issues. It isn't about denying anyone anything, it is about respect for those who tragically lost their lives and those close to them.

Thousands of examples of human nature over the last 20 years tell me that this is a very bad idea.

I disagree. I do, like Thalia, worry that someone might do something crazy like try to shoot up or bomb the mosque, or bomb something else and frame it on the mosque, etc. I really don't think the Muslim center affiliates would initiate anything violent. If nothing bad happens then I think people will forget about this in a relatively short amount of time. They will see (they won't really realize it nor will it be enough to make them reconsider stereotyping Muslims, because people don't stop and think) that the Muslim center's construction has not caused bad things to happen. Out of sight, out of mind.

If the Muslims do end up doing bad things, then I would assume it was caused directly by them being provoked, but that is still no excuse at all for violence. I guess at that point I would shift focus from religious equality and towards why it is important to stop the perpetuation of hate.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby mew » Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:30 am

Fridmarr wrote:Well I think there is a legal obligation to allow it. However, there are several million Muslims living in the US. I don't believe the construction of a mosque is going to improve dialog and cultural exchange.

Baby steps. Personally, I think this increased (since 9-11) discrimination against brown people in the US is going to continue for another 10+ years at least. A generation has just been unintentionally indoctrinated with the association of Middle Eastern looking people and bad, dangerous, untrustworthy, outsiders, etc.
No change will come overnight, but willingly sacrificing their (our?) rights would only be a step backwards.

I'm not sure how to phrase it, but I keep wanting to ask where the lines are drawn. How far from GZ can they build a mosque? What if a Muslim wanted to build a non-religious building in that area? It's been 9 years, for how much longer will they keep facing problems like this?
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Barathorn » Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:45 am

mew wrote:
Barathorn wrote:The bottom line is that it shouldn't be built in that location.

I cannot see any good come out of building it so close to the location. Regardless of all intentions, it will not promote racial harmony and it will lead to issues. It isn't about denying anyone anything, it is about respect for those who tragically lost their lives and those close to them.
Thousands of examples of human nature over the last 20 years tell me that this is a very bad idea.

I disagree. I do, like Thalia, worry that someone might do something crazy like try to shoot up or bomb the mosque, or bomb something else and frame it on the mosque, etc. I really don't think the Muslim center affiliates would initiate anything violent. If nothing bad happens then I think people will forget about this in a relatively short amount of time. They will see (they won't really realize it nor will it be enough to make them reconsider stereotyping Muslims, because people don't stop and think) that the Muslim center's construction has not caused bad things to happen. Out of sight, out of mind.

If the Muslims do end up doing bad things, then I would assume it was caused directly by them being provoked, but that is still no excuse at all for violence. I guess at that point I would shift focus from religious equality and towards why it is important to stop the perpetuation of hate.


Erm, that wasn't what I was saying at all or why I feel it is a bad idea. I don't expect the Muslims to initiate any sort of violent act, they don't need to, they have already won the battle if the building is given over to the use they require it for.

What I was saying in base terms is that if you pick on someone who has had a bad thing happen to them, and then rub their face in it some more, then something eventually gives and shit things happen. That is how human minds work.

I am all for forgiveness and harmony but not at the cost of respect for those who passed away or their families and really I honestly think that its a pretty clear show of a complete lack of respect for those people by those asking to allow this building to be used for a new purpose.

If it is allowed I hope it brings peace but I know it won't. Because every single time someone who lost someone that day has to go past or look at that building they will remember the pain and gradually that seed of anger will manifest into something bigger.

History tells us this is how it always happens. So why go down that road to start with and put yourself in that position. Sure have a new building/temple/whatever but don't put it in the same district/area/2-3 mile whatever of the site.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby knaughty » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:05 am

@ Barathorn:

So, should someone be allowed to build a Christian church beside the site of an abortion clinic that was torched by Christian fanatics?
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Barathorn » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:38 am

knaughty wrote:@ Barathorn:

So, should someone be allowed to build a Christian church beside the site of an abortion clinic that was torched by Christian fanatics?


No I don't believe so.

In honesty I don't know/don't think enough about this kind of stuff to go on anything other than my gut instinct regarding things like this and rely on the fact that my parents did a good job ensuring I had morals and respect.

If you rub someones face in a tragic loss of life then more fool you is all I am saying. History teaches us this leads to bad things happening.

I personally don't give a flying rats arse about religeon and who believes what from whatever religeous text. However that doesn't mean I don't have morals and a sense of respect when due.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby hoho » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:11 am

I don't get it why people would be against mosque near that place. It was the US (shadow) government itself that blew these buildings up, after all. It should be common knowledge!

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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Barathorn » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:29 am

hoho wrote:I don't get it why people would be against mosque near that place. It was the US (shadow) government itself that blew these buildings up, after all. It should be common knowledge!

/strengthens the tinfoil hat


I knew it would be coming. I didn't expect it from hoho though.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby hoho » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:43 am

Barathorn wrote:I knew it would be coming. I didn't expect it from hoho though.
I was rather surprised I didn't notice it in the first four pages so I filled the void :)


Though talking about the original topic, I see no problems with it. If anything it could even make (misguided) people tolerate Muslims better if they see they aren't actually running around with bomb belts at all times.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Fivelives » Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:54 am

I see no problem with it. This might sound trite, but if we allow terrorism to impinge on our rights and freedoms as Americans, then "the terrorists win".
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