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Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:56 pm

Koatanga wrote:I am not saying the US should be in the Congo. I am asking why, if they think themselves World Police enough to say "screw the UN, we're invading Iraq anyway", do they not act similarly in other cases? Isn't that just a bit inconsistent? Which suggests there is something about Iraq specifically that interests the US more than does impoverished portions of Africa. I'm gonna go on a limb here and suggest it's probably not the sand.
I wonder if we'd be there if they had the same neighbors that Iraq does? I mean when the country has a resource it sure makes things easier, but Iraq is hardly the only place we've been and it's not like Iraqi oil is pouring in here. Strategically though, Iraq has some very significant advantages.

But in general New Zealand forces are deployed in intelligence and relief roles, not infantry and invasion roles.
Well that's convenient, how do we get that deal?

We were there for the US when Katrina happened. New Zealand was ready to send personnel, materials, and even money in relief. The US said "no thanks, we don't need you".
Because we didn't though. The problem with Katrina wasn't lack of stuff, it was lack of stuff in a ready alert status, and access. Kind of like Haiti, we had relief there right away, but it couldn't do anything.

The people of the US are largely isolationist. Few have passports, few see or care about the rest of the world. Those are the people electing the people who make US, and by extension World policy. We see televised debates where the people being elected to run the World Police can't locate hot spots on a map, don't know the names of the leaders of other large nations, and in general show no understanding at all of what's going on outside the US.
Well to be fair, we are a freaking huge country bordered by two freaking huge countries that until very recently didn't require a passport to enter or return. In fact they still don't require it if you have an enhanced driver's license.

One of my friends from the UK looked at a map one day and decided she'd drive to Boston to see her cousin for the afternoon. We were in Seattle at the time, what she perceived as a few hours drive to get across the country and back, would have taken her like 6 days round trip. Size matters :oops:
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Dorvan » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:01 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Because we didn't though. The problem with Katrina wasn't lack of stuff, it was lack of stuff in a ready alert status, and access. Kind of like Haiti, we had relief there right away, but it couldn't do anything.


+1

Fridmarr wrote:Well to be fair, we are freaking huge country bordered by two freaking huge countries that until very recently didn't require a passport to enter or return. In fact they still don't require it if you have an enhanced driver's license.

One of my friends from the UK looked at a map one day and decided she'd drive to Boston to see her cousin for the afternoon. We were in Seattle at the time, what she perceived as a few hours drive to get across the country and back, would have taken her like 6 days round trip. Size matters :oops:


+1 again

If anyone has any information about European travel relative to American travel when you remove intra-Europe travel, I'd be genuinely interested to see it.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Melathys » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:25 pm

That is a good point, in that foreign travel for americans generally involves overseas flights, which normal people don't take too frivolously. Canada?..not very exciting :p. I live on the southern border, and I know people that grew up in mexico that don't travel there for fear of their lives(so a white guy like me sure ain't going).


I suppose, comparable international travel for europeans would be like traveling between states in the US, and you don't need a passport for that.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Brekkie » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:28 pm

Which suggests there is something about Iraq specifically that interests the US more than does impoverished portions of Africa. I'm gonna go on a limb here and suggest it's probably not the sand.

You'd be correct, but it has a LOT more to do with it's strategic location than oil.

Check this out. The black represents currently allied or occupied countries.

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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Koatanga » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:03 am

Brekkie wrote:
Which suggests there is something about Iraq specifically that interests the US more than does impoverished portions of Africa. I'm gonna go on a limb here and suggest it's probably not the sand.

You'd be correct, but it has a LOT more to do with it's strategic location than oil.

Check this out. The black represents currently allied or occupied countries.

Image


My point exactly. I'm talking about Iraq, you circle a different country. Americans...

;)
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Chicken » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:15 am

Dorvan wrote:If anyone has any information about European travel relative to American travel when you remove intra-Europe travel, I'd be genuinely interested to see it.
Not entirely the same thing, but I've always mentally compared traveling to different states to be roughly equivalent to traveling to a different country in Europe. The two are just plain not comparable, from where I live I can travel by car to almost anywhere else in the same country in 5 hours or so, and that's if I'm taking things slow; and I don't even live in a centrally located city. In the United States, that time spent driving covers only a tiny portion of the country.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby lythac » Tue Aug 31, 2010 3:20 am

Koatanga wrote:
Brekkie wrote:
Which suggests there is something about Iraq specifically that interests the US more than does impoverished portions of Africa. I'm gonna go on a limb here and suggest it's probably not the sand.

You'd be correct, but it has a LOT more to do with it's strategic location than oil.

Check this out. The black represents currently allied or occupied countries.

Middle-East-map image


My point exactly. I'm talking about Iraq, you circle a different country. Americans...

;)


He filled in the countries with black that are currently allied or occupied countries. They coincidently form a circle around Iran. Unless the something specific about Iraq is its location.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby theckhd » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:34 am

Koatanga wrote:My point exactly. I'm talking about Iraq, you circle a different country. Americans...

;)

In your obsessive generalizing of your fellow Americans, you managed to completely miss the fucking point. Congratulations.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Dorvan » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:16 am

theckhd wrote:
Koatanga wrote:My point exactly. I'm talking about Iraq, you circle a different country. Americans...

;)

In your obsessive generalizing of your fellow Americans, you managed to completely miss the fucking point. Congratulations.


+1000
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby theckhd » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:33 am

Dorvan wrote:
theckhd wrote:
Koatanga wrote:My point exactly. I'm talking about Iraq, you circle a different country. Americans...

;)

In your obsessive generalizing of your fellow Americans, you managed to completely miss the fucking point. Congratulations.


+1000


Actually, to be fair, I think the "wink" smiley was supposed to indicate he was joking. So maybe I'm the one that got /whooshed.

That said, it always annoys me when people paint all Americans with the same brush, which is something Koatanga and a few others have been doing a lot in recent posts. Statements like "Americans are X" are pretty much worthless, because you see huge variations even within a single county or state, no less geographic region.

Are there lots of people who just take what's spoon-fed to them as long as it reinforces their inherent biases and prejudices? Yes, of course, just like any other country does. By the same token, there are a lot of us who don't, and it's extremely insulting to us when people treat Americans like a homogeneous group of imbeciles.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Sabindeus » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:52 am

I am clearly the best American.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Barathorn » Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:59 am

theckhd wrote:By the same token, there are a lot of us who don't, and it's extremely insulting to us when people treat Americans like a homogeneous group of imbeciles.


By the same token, and without wishing to generalise too much or to cause offense but to try to shed some light on how things are viewed,

If you didn't treat the rest of the world the same way you think you are being treated then you might not get generalised about in that fashion?

I like America, but I don't know a non feisty American with the exception of Invis and in fairness he is half cat anyway. I think the biggest flaw of America is believing as a generalisation that other countries are not as patriotic as you are.

Trust me, we are.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Invisusira » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:02 am

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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Fridmarr » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:43 am

Chicken wrote:
Dorvan wrote:If anyone has any information about European travel relative to American travel when you remove intra-Europe travel, I'd be genuinely interested to see it.
Not entirely the same thing, but I've always mentally compared traveling to different states to be roughly equivalent to traveling to a different country in Europe. The two are just plain not comparable, from where I live I can travel by car to almost anywhere else in the same country in 5 hours or so, and that's if I'm taking things slow; and I don't even live in a centrally located city. In the United States, that time spent driving covers only a tiny portion of the country.

It's even worse than that if you are going to use passports as some sort of benchmark because until quite recently I could go to Canada (and I'd assume Mexico) and the Bahamas without a passport. You still can, you just can't get back to the US without a passport, if I remember correctly. I could literally drive for a week in any direction and I'd either be stopped by water or still be in a place where I didn't need a passport.

The US also has most climates covered. You want good winter resorts, the Pacific NW or Alaska works very well. Nice beaches are your thing, you have FL, CA, and Hawaii. Want to hit a ranch, or do some outdoors/hunting/hiking stuff, got it. Want to climb a big mountain...yep can do that too. Add Canada, Mexico, and the Bahamas to those when you didn't need a passport and you had even more great options. That isn't even counting the non resort type stuff like New York, Las Vegas, or whatever other city you like or whatever event you want to attend that they might be hosting. We have like 7 day Alaska cruises here, how many other countries have 7 day cruises that only go to a set of locations still within that country?

I'm sure many Americans would love to travel to the other continents. I mean who wouldn't love the opportunity to see and experience more of the world's wonders? However, with so many great options closer to home, and usually cheaper, you can't really use travel as some benchmark of isolationism.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Nikachelle » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:55 am

Just pointing out:

Fridmarr wrote:You still can, you just can't get back to the US without a passport, if I remember correctly.

This is incorrect, you need a passport to get into Canada from the States as of June 1, 2009 (and vice versa), via air, rail, water or car. I believe passports for car entry was the last one enforced as I've required a passport to go to and from the States for about two to three years now.
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