Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Fivelives » Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:29 pm

There was never a Vietnam War. There was a Vietnam conflict, thus allowing the US to truthfully state "We have never once lost a war." The Korean war is technically still ongoing - we've just been under a 50ish year cease fire. Once that finally ends, it too might become a "conflict" instead of a war in the American history books.

Propaganda at its finest.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Arjuna » Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:53 am

silly people that are slaves to the propaganda are everywhere...

...if only there would be some kind of logic/general knowledge test to make people viable for voting... :(
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Brekkie » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:29 am

They tried that. It ended up simply functionally being a tool to prevent minorities and poor people from voting, and was one of the things the civil rights movement fought against and got banned.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Lightbeard » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:59 am

Apparently a Mosque in Tenn. that was there for around 30 years just burned.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:56 am

Whoa, just catching up on this thread after the weekend and I have to admit I'm a bit taken aback by the obviously incorrect notions that the US/UK pretty much were the only ones believing that Iraq had WMDs. I'm not sure if there is some confusion between not supporting the invasion and not believing that Iraq had WMDs or what is the cause. France and Germany (especially Germany) were both staunchly opposed to the war, but were also huge contributors to the intelligence stating that Iraq did have WMDs.

As for the inspectors, sure they've come crawling out of the woodwork since the invasion with an "I told you so" moniker, but those same inspectors were the biggest joke of the UN (is that a joke within a joke?) for more than a decade. These folks were essentially Sadam's whipping boys and had to be pulled out of Iraq repeatedly because of noncompliance issues. Now they claim that they were effective. In reality they were not, Sadam had just became to unstable and unwilling to part with what money that was coming in, to maintain the program.

There really was not any nation with intelligence in Iraq suggesting that they didn't have WMDs, and that's fairly illogical anyhow. I mean the whole point of getting here in the discussion of the mosque was that somehow the US has blood on their hands over the sanctions handed down by the UN (never mind that the US never really cared much about them) that resulted in the deaths of Iraqis. You guys aren't seriously suggesting that your nations knew that Iraq had no weapons, while still imposing such sanctions, and further unanimously imposing further rounds, citing specifically that Iraq was not in compliance with their WMDs, and for more inspections post 9/11. Because if you believe that, then you must also believe that your nations are far more responsible for the deaths caused by the sanctions than the US would be, and that's even ignoring the oil for food mess.

At the end of the day, Sadam wanted the world to believe he still had WMD capabilities because he never envisioned that he'd have to answer for it. He was fine siphoning off the various programs designed to get aid to his people, while feeling like he was thumbing his nose at the rest of the world.

As for the cost benefit ratio of the invasion itself, that's a far more debatable topic. Iraq certainly isn't disney land right now, but it's a nation that does for the first time in generations, have potential. Iraq would have continued to be a cesspool for decades without significant interference from outside. Now the people there at least have a chance to create a stable and prosperous nation in their own identity. It's certainly an uphill battle and even a long shot, but the opportunity nonetheless, exists.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby laterna » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:07 am

Fridmarr, if the no1 superpower nation in the world, seeks to attack a small middle-east country for oil, and you need the superpower's aid to solve your own issues, you wouldn't stand in its way. Politics is maximising profit, not doing what is right. If any country went against the US and said that Iraq does not infact have any WMD's, what do you think would happen? All it takes to attack a country, is 1 small reason, or a faked reason...

When you were a kid, you didn't oppose the biggest mofo in the yard, you ducked your head, and went with the flow. Making a patriotic "But I'm a person with proper moral and so is my country" is wrong. Your politic leadership, is not all morals and kissing babys. It simply looks after what serves the countries intrests at best, fair or not fair.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:40 am

Laterna wrote:Fridmarr, if the no1 superpower nation in the world, seeks to attack a small middle-east country for oil, and you need the superpower's aid to solve your own issues, you wouldn't stand in its way. Politics is maximising profit, not doing what is right. If any country went against the US and said that Iraq does not infact have any WMD's, what do you think would happen? All it takes to attack a country, is 1 small reason, or a faked reason...

When you were a kid, you didn't oppose the biggest mofo in the yard, you ducked your head, and went with the flow. Making a patriotic "But I'm a person with proper moral and so is my country" is wrong. Your politic leadership, is not all morals and kissing babys. It simply looks after what serves the countries intrests at best, fair or not fair.
Oil! :roll:

Oh come on, you really think Germany or France is threatened by the US? They staunchly opposed the war while supplying significant intelligence, which goes explicitly counter to your claim that we bullied them. Also, all across Europe at that time, it was far more lucrative politically to oppose the US than to join them.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Arjuna » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:58 am

Fridmarr wrote:Whoa, just catching up on this thread after the weekend and I have to admit I'm a bit taken aback by the obviously incorrect notions that the US/UK pretty much were the only ones believing that Iraq had WMDs. I'm not sure if there is some confusion between not supporting the invasion and not believing that Iraq had WMDs or what is the cause. France and Germany (especially Germany) were both staunchly opposed to the war, but were also huge contributors to the intelligence stating that Iraq did have WMDs.

Don't know anything about this, cite your sources.
Fridmarr wrote:As for the inspectors, sure they've come crawling out of the woodwork since the invasion with an "I told you so" moniker, but those same inspectors were the biggest joke of the UN (is that a joke within a joke?) for more than a decade. These folks were essentially Sadam's whipping boys and had to be pulled out of Iraq repeatedly because of noncompliance issues. Now they claim that they were effective. In reality they were not, Sadam had just became to unstable and unwilling to part with what money that was coming in, to maintain the program.

Hmm, strange how the "whipping boys" were correct after all. And strange how they were saying before the invasion how they were only a few months away from resolving the key remaining disarmament tasks. They had met some "resistance" from the Iraqi government, but that was nothing they couldn't handle...and that the US actually called for their withdrawal back in -98. (when they and the brits bombed Iraq)
Fridmarr wrote:There really was not any nation with intelligence in Iraq suggesting that they didn't have WMDs, and that's fairly illogical anyhow. I mean the whole point of getting here in the discussion of the mosque was that somehow the US has blood on their hands over the sanctions handed down by the UN (never mind that the US never really cared much about them) that resulted in the deaths of Iraqis. You guys aren't seriously suggesting that your nations knew that Iraq had no weapons, while still imposing such sanctions, and further unanimously imposing further rounds, citing specifically that Iraq was not in compliance with their WMDs, and for more inspections post 9/11. Because if you believe that, then you must also believe that your nations are far more responsible for the deaths caused by the sanctions than the US would be, and that's even ignoring the oil for food mess.

We know you US people don't have much love for the UN, and that you rather just dictate stuff yourself, but don't come say that the sanctions were a recent thing. They originated 4 days after Iraq invaded Kuwait, and were strengthened at the end of the gulf war. After 12 years of sanctions and investigations in a war-torn country its pretty silly to believe they actually had any WMDs.
Fridmarr wrote:At the end of the day, Sadam wanted the world to believe he still had WMD capabilities because he never envisioned that he'd have to answer for it. He was fine siphoning off the various programs designed to get aid to his people, while feeling like he was thumbing his nose at the rest of the world.

Ofc he wanted the world to believe he had WMDs, he was a hot air balloon. And ofc he was living off the programs, he was a dictator after all. They aren't very known to be big humanitarians, are they?
Fridmarr wrote:As for the cost benefit ratio of the invasion itself, that's a far more debatable topic. Iraq certainly isn't disney land right now, but it's a nation that does for the first time in generations, have potential. Iraq would have continued to be a cesspool for decades without significant interference from outside. Now the people there at least have a chance to create a stable and prosperous nation in their own identity. It's certainly an uphill battle and even a long shot, but the opportunity nonetheless, exists.

No, it's not a disney land, but 12 years is a very small generation...because before the gulf war the land was seeing some changes for the better with improved irrigation, education and a better standard of living for many. Sure, Saddam was still in office and would have been for quite some time if he hadn't invaded Kuwait. And he wasn't an angel, that's for sure. But hooray, now they have coca cola and McDonalds!!! yay!!!

But wait...there are other countries in the region with dictators and unfairness, lets invade them too so that they too can have their own identities!
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:30 am

Arjuna wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Whoa, just catching up on this thread after the weekend and I have to admit I'm a bit taken aback by the obviously incorrect notions that the US/UK pretty much were the only ones believing that Iraq had WMDs. I'm not sure if there is some confusion between not supporting the invasion and not believing that Iraq had WMDs or what is the cause. France and Germany (especially Germany) were both staunchly opposed to the war, but were also huge contributors to the intelligence stating that Iraq did have WMDs.

Don't know anything about this, cite your sources.
Seriously? Curveball was one of the biggest intelligence gaffes of all time. Just search for it, you'll find plenty.

Arjuna wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:There really was not any nation with intelligence in Iraq suggesting that they didn't have WMDs, and that's fairly illogical anyhow. I mean the whole point of getting here in the discussion of the mosque was that somehow the US has blood on their hands over the sanctions handed down by the UN (never mind that the US never really cared much about them) that resulted in the deaths of Iraqis. You guys aren't seriously suggesting that your nations knew that Iraq had no weapons, while still imposing such sanctions, and further unanimously imposing further rounds, citing specifically that Iraq was not in compliance with their WMDs, and for more inspections post 9/11. Because if you believe that, then you must also believe that your nations are far more responsible for the deaths caused by the sanctions than the US would be, and that's even ignoring the oil for food mess.

We know you US people don't have much love for the UN, and that you rather just dictate stuff yourself, but don't come say that the sanctions were a recent thing. They originated 4 days after Iraq invaded Kuwait, and were strengthened at the end of the gulf war. After 12 years of sanctions and investigations in a war-torn country its pretty silly to believe they actually had any WMDs.
No you are misunderstanding me. I'm aware of the sanctions after the gulf war, I'm talking about their reaffirmation after 9/11 which was on the basis of WMD's among other things. It's actually not silly at all, in fact the means were most certainly there, on top of the fact that they did not comply previous instructions to destroy existing stockpiles.

Regardless, if you believe that it is silly, then how do you feel about the UN continuing imposing these sanctions which were killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis over something that was silly?

Arjuna wrote:But wait...there are other countries in the region with dictators and unfairness, lets invade them too so that they too can have their own identities!

Right, we should just stand by doing nothing, despite having the means, to stop some of the most unimaginable atrocities to continue. It's not like we have the choice, the world doesn't have the intestinal fortitude it. That's fine with me, I wouldn't mind us just pulling out of everywhere and letting it all be someone else's problem.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Melathys » Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:22 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Right, we should just stand by doing nothing, despite having the means, to stop some of the most unimaginable atrocities to continue. It's not like we have the choice, the world doesn't have the intestinal fortitude it. That's fine with me, I wouldn't mind us just pulling out of everywhere and letting it all be someone else's problem.

word

If we just pulled out of everything, I'm sure the whole world would be crying for our help. Instead they like to cry that we don't mind our own business.

I personally would be just fine to let all the haters destroy themselves. Maybe if we weren't spending so much of our resources trying to help others, we could fix ourselves...


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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Koatanga » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:44 pm

Fridmarr wrote:Right, we should just stand by doing nothing, despite having the means, to stop some of the most unimaginable atrocities to continue. It's not like we have the choice, the world doesn't have the intestinal fortitude it. That's fine with me, I wouldn't mind us just pulling out of everywhere and letting it all be someone else's problem.


When can we expect the US to invade the Congo? Or are those lesser atrocities because they don't sit on oil?

What a bunch of rubbish.

The US is as self-serving as any other country. They just have better press agents.

No one elected Team America as World Police. Nor do we want to hear the "woe is us, we're so broke because we spent so much money protecting Freedom Around the World that we can't recover from Katrina" while refusing the help offered by other countries. The US made that bed; it can sleep in it.

Tell you what - clean up new Orleans, clean up Detroit, then worry about cleaning up the world.

There's nothing more dangerous than a country imposing its will on the world when more people believe Obama is Muslim than there are people who hold current passports. The US population in general is so freaking isolationist they have no idea what is going on around the world.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Brekkie » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:55 pm

I remember reading the results of a thought exercise on what would happen if the U.S. withdrew from all world-wide peace-keeping, humanitarian, and military presence outside of it's own soil, and withdrew it's 22% contribution to the UN regular budget and 26% of the UN peacekeeping budget, done by a group of political science and economics experts.
I don't remember the details, but it amounted to essentially a massive global economic depression, and practical world war 3 erupting.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Fridmarr » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:24 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Right, we should just stand by doing nothing, despite having the means, to stop some of the most unimaginable atrocities to continue. It's not like we have the choice, the world doesn't have the intestinal fortitude it. That's fine with me, I wouldn't mind us just pulling out of everywhere and letting it all be someone else's problem.


When can we expect the US to invade the Congo? Or are those lesser atrocities because they don't sit on oil?

What a bunch of rubbish.

The US is as self-serving as any other country. They just have better press agents.

No one elected Team America as World Police. Nor do we want to hear the "woe is us, we're so broke because we spent so much money protecting Freedom Around the World that we can't recover from Katrina" while refusing the help offered by other countries. The US made that bed; it can sleep in it.

Tell you what - clean up new Orleans, clean up Detroit, then worry about cleaning up the world.

There's nothing more dangerous than a country imposing its will on the world when more people believe Obama is Muslim than there are people who hold current passports. The US population in general is so freaking isolationist they have no idea what is going on around the world.
Your take on my position couldn't be more off the mark. However, I've really got to ask, what the heck is with the obsession with oil? I mean when Iraq invaded Kuwait, Hussein wasn't planning on sticking the oil up his ass.

Yes we are self serving in our actions, as is your country's inaction. In that regard you are no different, unless of course you condone those atrocities then you are worse. If I had to choose between the people who step in to do the right thing only when it helps them vs the people who never step in, the choice for me is clear. Of course, that's irrelevant to the Iraq invasion which is more about whether or not it was the right thing.

No one bitches when New Zealand doesn't step in as they do with us, but please let the UN know we aren't the world's police, because while they pay that phrase plenty of lip service, their actions speak quite differently when the rubber hits the road.

Frankly I find the "why aren't you in the congo" argument pretty much garbage anyhow. Would you support us going in to the Congo? If so, why aren't you clamoring for your own country to go there, or the Congo's neighbors, or the UN?

Lastly, I don't know where the concept that the amount of money spent in Iraq is so terribly problematic came from. I'm as critical of it as the next guy, but our investment there is about the same as our stimulus bill, only with more stimulus. It's not insignificant but it has in no way handicapped our ability to do anything else. Politicians here can't wait to spend money, whether we have it or not doesn't matter.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Melathys » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:50 pm

Koatanga wrote:
Fridmarr wrote:Right, we should just stand by doing nothing, despite having the means, to stop some of the most unimaginable atrocities to continue. It's not like we have the choice, the world doesn't have the intestinal fortitude it. That's fine with me, I wouldn't mind us just pulling out of everywhere and letting it all be someone else's problem.


When can we expect the US to invade the Congo? Or are those lesser atrocities because they don't sit on oil?

What a bunch of rubbish.

The US is as self-serving as any other country. They just have better press agents.

No one elected Team America as World Police. Nor do we want to hear the "woe is us, we're so broke because we spent so much money protecting Freedom Around the World that we can't recover from Katrina" while refusing the help offered by other countries. The US made that bed; it can sleep in it.

Tell you what - clean up new Orleans, clean up Detroit, then worry about cleaning up the world.

There's nothing more dangerous than a country imposing its will on the world when more people believe Obama is Muslim than there are people who hold current passports. The US population in general is so freaking isolationist they have no idea what is going on around the world.


exactly why I say we just let the rest of the world destroy themselves. I can't help but lol at the whole "well you're here, so why aren't you here?" argument. Its exactly this two faced mentality that is irritating. If you want to bring up the Congo...how about someone else help them out? You really do expect the US to help the whole world by themselves, don't you? You say that the US is so self righteous that we can't keep out of other countries' business, and then criticize for not getting in some other nation's business. I don't often hear of other nations going and trying to help others. The whole world is so self centered, that they can scarcely believe when someone tries to help someone else. Even the UN doesn't do much of anything but place sanctions against nations it doesn't like, and when it actually does do something, its usually following the US.

I'd be fine with letting the self righteous world rot in their own filth, so we can clean up our own.
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Re: Controversial topic inc: Muslim cultural center+mosque in NY

Postby Koatanga » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:38 pm

I am not saying the US should be in the Congo. I am asking why, if they think themselves World Police enough to say "screw the UN, we're invading Iraq anyway", do they not act similarly in other cases? Isn't that just a bit inconsistent? Which suggests there is something about Iraq specifically that interests the US more than does impoverished portions of Africa. I'm gonna go on a limb here and suggest it's probably not the sand.

New Zealand doesn't, as a rule, invade other nations. If the UN is involved, then we're involved. New Zealand SAS forces are in Afghanistan right along side your boys. There was even a famous incident where your government publicly reported where our covert ops were taking place - thanks for that.

But in general New Zealand forces are deployed in intelligence and relief roles, not infantry and invasion roles.

We don't usually take unilateral action against the will of the international community, but rather support the will of the international community.

We were there for the US when Katrina happened. New Zealand was ready to send personnel, materials, and even money in relief. The US said "no thanks, we don't need you".

I'm happy with the US not being the world police. I would be much happier if the US would commit to a bit of restraint, acting as the international community does (or doesn't). There can be times, such as the mythical WMDs, where US intelligence is simply incorrect and maybe a bit of perspective from the rest of the world would be a good thing.

The people of the US are largely isolationist. Few have passports, few see or care about the rest of the world. Those are the people electing the people who make US, and by extension World policy. We see televised debates where the people being elected to run the World Police can't locate hot spots on a map, don't know the names of the leaders of other large nations, and in general show no understanding at all of what's going on outside the US.

So yeah, I am annoyed as hell at the US blundering around sticking its nose everywhere instead of being a proper member of the international community.

And before I hear about how I don't know what I am speaking of, keep in mind I am an American citizen living abroad, and that I spent the vast majority of my life in the US. I do in fact know what America is like.
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