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Postby chaos45 » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:37 am

To continue where I left off lol....many people saw the US transform from a product type economy to a new information age economy as it were.... the issue here being that many other countries have now begun to catch up to the US on educational levels, and thus can also capitalize on what we saw as our future nitche market. If you really evaluate most of the American economy it is a service economy because we go out more than any other country in the world. So the majority of those jobs that keep our unemployment low are also jobs that most people dont want to work as they are either menial or low paying.

So yes we have lower unemployment, but what about underemployment as well...how many people in the US work jobs that are under their educational or experience lvl just to make money to pay the bills? Its a fact that in general over the last 8 years Americans have become poorer, oh except for the top couple % which are the richest people in America. My stance on politics is that no matter who is elected little will change because thats the nature of the system. The system is built to sustain itself with only as much change as is absoultely necessary to survive. However its amusing when even the rich in America say they have gotten to many benefits under the Bush administration in comparision to how much they have to pay for the system. Its also pretty amazing that many of these fund managers and corporate managers still make out with billions after their fund/companies go bankrupt, and stockholders lose everything....eventaully things will change or America will fall into a more or less class society as thats what it is headed into......history repeats itself, and we are getting very close to the same set of circumstances we had in the early 1900s were people made to little money to pay for products and thus if companies cant sell anything they cant make money and it all comes crashing down.

We arent there yet, but if we get 4-8 more years of stagnant wages like the last 8 years have been we will see some truly catastrophic events transpire is my view.
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Postby Erendis » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:43 pm

I'm not going to say everything is fine but I do not think it is the governments job to help the economy. In my opinion the government should go to a hands off stance and let the market correct itself and only step in to deal with fraud and blatant safety issues.

Most of the issues with the devaluing of the dollar can be pointed at the flawed Federal Reserve system. Remove the government from the economy and I bet there will be improvement. Not overnight and it may get worse before it gets better.
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Postby QuantumDelta » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:52 pm

As another external point of view I really, really, feel that the democrats bottom line is pretty right at the moment.
The US wont withstand another 4 years like the last 8.

I found it amusing when one of mccains people said the economy was recovering.
It's really not, the US economy hasn't moved anywhere at all recently, it LOOKS like it's recovered slightly because the UK, and Europe has also been hit by an economic downturn due to /food/ (which the US bailed on a large part of, that they would normally supply through the UN leaving Europe to foot the bill), and the oil problem has hit everyone.

If you compare them to the Chinese economy that America has been taking lones out of - the US has been put to shame.

The problem is that there isn't much bouncing around the global economy in the wests direction at the moment and the US wont be able to jump ontop of that bounce, nor is abusing IPs working for them anymore.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Europeans start abandoning the US IP system in the next decade, at which point the US economic bubble will pop.
Though that's not the republicans fault......they are in such an economic mess, and always have been historically in policy - that should they ever have an extended period in power, this will always be the result, should europe and indeed the rest of the world wrestle free from the Dollar denomination domination of Black Gold, and the IPs of the US, their economy would implode faster than the Germans Pre-WWII.
And that's a bad thing.
For _Everyone_.

Even the democrats policies wouldn't help much if all that happened, but the point is, the democrats economic models don't let the situation get that rickety to begin with.
12 years of republican inefficiency and cowtowing to the bigboys in suits and Europe/China will probably be able to completely ignore the US in terms of economics should they so choose.
...At which point it basically comes down to two view points "Morality", abandoning a backend of WWII Brokered economic system to keep the US afloat/ontop no matter what, signed on the dotted line by most of the developed nations of the world.....
Or.
Carrying America, the deadweight leech nation.

What do you think Europe and China would do?
It's already happening, slowly.
Barrels are being bought in Euro's in some places, and some federal reserves in some nations are being stockpiled in Euros instead of Dollars.
If the american people don't wake up to this they will quickly see inflation never seen before on this planet.

...Do you people even realise how much of your money is held by the rest of the world 'just incase the country hits hard times'?
The bank of England is just about the only bank that doesn't outside of the Euro-Block.
If they suddenly decide their stockpile of Dollars isn't worth it and sell it off, the dollar will drop in value, another nation will see it happen and do the same so they don't lose more value from their stockpile.
And the dollar will crash.

The Bush administration really doesn't seem to realise how close it is to letting this happen.
I'll rephrase that even.
CAUSING this.

As much as I would like to see some economic independance for some of the countries america continues to exploit, I realise that it'll be bad for my nation and my neighbouring nations, if it does.
Assuming the new repub administration is not much better than bushes (and it has the potential to be worse!)...
It will go that way.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:06 pm

So this isn't just a temporary downturn in the economy, which happens naturally as part of all economies?
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Postby QuantumDelta » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:49 pm

It very well had the potential to be nothing more than that, but remember that, before bush got into power the american economy was actually still growing, and the national debt was decreasing (not by huge amounts but it was going down), the dollars strength around the world was amazing compared to what it is right now, coupled with the wars he's raged, the economic policies of the bush administration has put a lot of pressure on the economy, and the world economy just doesn't have the capacity to present enough opportunities to support a speedy recovery.

It's very likely should nothing horrible happen that it wont get much worse than it is, the likelihood of countries abandoning their stockpiles is pretty low, but this is the weakest the us economy has _ever_ been in it's entire history since the start of anything like the global economy (1950s for it's true origin), An american entrepreneur basically invented the IP economy on which america is now almost entirely dependant, it's sat on this huge bubble of artificial value.
That artificial value is the belief that americas economy will never fail.
It was a steadfast belief that almost the entire world shared, but the Bush administration has shown just how easy it is to wreck such a nation, doubts about the strength of the Dollar vs the Euro, let alone the Yuan (in the future) is starting to take it's toll, it will only take the faith-break of a few nations to completely burst the bubble that's floating the US economy.
Litterally billions-of-billions of USD are sat in government vaults around the planet, because America sold them to countries for Gold and other such valuables (hense America is one of the only countries with anything close to a Fort Knox, there simply is no parallel elsewhere).

If McCain's administration follows the same path Bush took (very very likely), that bubble is in danger of bursting.
With all those dollars flooding back into the US economy for no value-gain....

Well I guess I don't have to explain that part, pictures of wheel barrows of Deutsch marks to buy bread should suffice.
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Postby moduspwnens » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:59 pm

Well, one major thing you're forgetting is 9/11. It played a huge role in the economy during the first few years of the Bush presidency. So, to say something like "before Bush got into power the american economy was actually still growing," etc. isn't quite fair, because there was a huge outer force that played a significant role on whether or not the economy continued to boom.

...and the economy wasn't doing too poorly until the last year or so. Certainly the DOW isn't the only barometer of the economy, but:
http://money.cnn.com/quote/chart/charts ... 108&size=3

From 2003 to halfway through 2007, things weren't looking too bad. Maybe it was gas prices, maybe it was the housing crisis, or maybe it was some mixture and/or more, but I don't think the sky is falling, and to take the last year and a half of the Bush administration and say the entire presidency was an economic failure seems a little harsh.
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Postby QuantumDelta » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:13 pm

moduspwnens wrote:Well, one major thing you're forgetting is 9/11. It played a huge role in the economy during the first few years of the Bush presidency. So, to say something like "before Bush got into power the american economy was actually still growing," etc. isn't quite fair, because there was a huge outer force that played a significant role on whether or not the economy continued to boom.

...and the economy wasn't doing too poorly until the last year or so. Certainly the DOW isn't the only barometer of the economy, but:
http://money.cnn.com/quote/chart/charts ... 108&size=3

From 2003 to halfway through 2007, things weren't looking too bad. Maybe it was gas prices, maybe it was the housing crisis, or maybe it was some mixture and/or more, but I don't think the sky is falling, and to take the last year and a half of the Bush administration and say the entire presidency was an economic failure seems a little harsh.

Re-read your post...
Then tell me 9/11 is to blame :P
Your country just borrowed 700 Billion Dollars from your future largest Economy competition for the top spot on the world...

It was a combination of War/Policy/Oil Pressure/Food/Housing more than anything else.
In that order*

It's not really a case of the sky falling -yet- but even before 2007, the signs were there.
The American public and media have really been in denial about it since ..mid 2005?
But it's interesting that you linked the DOW.

The DOW is as close as you can possibly get to something reflecting the economy without government influence.
If that ever flops the industrial and commercial backbone that any and all governments know they rest upon, in every nation of the world, will have broken.
That would be about equal to the dollar collapse I guess, perhaps worse even since the ability to rebuild would be effected too.

Edit:
I'm going to /exit thread now, I don't want to look like I'm ranting, or flaming, because I'm not trying to, I'm just worried, really.
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Postby moduspwnens » Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:56 am

I wasn't blaming 9/11 for anything except disrupting the economic growth we were experiencing when Bush took office. You framed it like, "Everything was going fine, and then Bush took office," when it was more like, "Everything was going fine, and then 9/11." After 9/11, I don't think anyone would say that the Bush administration did a poor job. After all, it was a national crisis and we were facing recession or worse, and we did come up out of it.

I won't say we're in a great situation now, but I'll just say that I think all economies fluctuate, and I think that's what ours is doing now. The sky isn't falling.
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Postby Ghort » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:59 am

moduspwnens wrote:Well, one major thing you're forgetting is 9/11. It played a huge role in the economy during the first few years of the Bush presidency. So, to say something like "before Bush got into power the american economy was actually still growing," etc. isn't quite fair, because there was a huge outer force that played a significant role on whether or not the economy continued to boom.

...and the economy wasn't doing too poorly until the last year or so. Certainly the DOW isn't the only barometer of the economy, but:
http://money.cnn.com/quote/chart/charts ... 108&size=3

From 2003 to halfway through 2007, things weren't looking too bad. Maybe it was gas prices, maybe it was the housing crisis, or maybe it was some mixture and/or more, but I don't think the sky is falling, and to take the last year and a half of the Bush administration and say the entire presidency was an economic failure seems a little harsh.



WTB more posts with data to back them up. Anything else is just talking out your ass
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Postby Hankthetank » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:34 am

fuzzygeek wrote:Barak is very good at reading teleprompters.


Fixed. ;)

chaos45 wrote:I was still in college when Bush started to undermine the value of the US dollar, and well 8 years later you can see the effects of this directly with 3-4 dollar a gallon gas.


You know, just two years ago, which would be almost six years after Bush started to "undermine" the country, gas was somehow still at just $1.50/gallon.

Around that same time the Democrats took control of Congress. Since that time, gas has nearly tripled in price. (while some people will debate that, it is far closer to triple price than double price)

The president, regardless of party, can only sign or veto bills that are given to him. The power to pass legislation is in Congress. I ask you now, with a Democratically controlled Congress, why have they allowed the super inflation of the price of gas under THEIR watch?
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Postby moduspwnens » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:37 am

Ghort wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:Well, one major thing you're forgetting is 9/11. It played a huge role in the economy during the first few years of the Bush presidency. So, to say something like "before Bush got into power the american economy was actually still growing," etc. isn't quite fair, because there was a huge outer force that played a significant role on whether or not the economy continued to boom.

...and the economy wasn't doing too poorly until the last year or so. Certainly the DOW isn't the only barometer of the economy, but:
http://money.cnn.com/quote/chart/charts ... 108&size=3

From 2003 to halfway through 2007, things weren't looking too bad.
Maybe it was gas prices, maybe it was the housing crisis, or maybe it was some mixture and/or more, but I don't think the sky is falling, and to take the last year and a half of the Bush administration and say the entire presidency was an economic failure seems a little harsh.



WTB more posts with data to back them up. Anything else is just talking out your ass


The red part, I don't think is even debatable. Is anyone going to tell me 9/11 didn't have a major effect on the economy? The blue part is backed up by the link to the DOW performance. There are a ton of ways you can gauge how well the economy is doing, and that's one of them. The green part was admitted speculation with the words "maybe" and "I don't think."

EDIT: Maybe you weren't addressing me? I guess it wasn't clear.
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Postby Dorvan » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:42 pm

Experiment complete, hypothesis confirmed :P
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Postby Levantine » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:49 pm

Dorvan wrote:Experiment complete, hypothesis confirmed :P


Lol, I C WUT U DID THAR.
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Postby Fridmarr » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:51 pm

Levantine wrote:
Dorvan wrote:Experiment complete, hypothesis confirmed :P


Lol, I C WUT U DID THAR.


Wait, where is hitler?
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Postby Thesupreme » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:22 pm

Superman tanks all!

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