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My threat on gruul... what did i do wrong?

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My threat on gruul... what did i do wrong?

Postby Probius » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:09 am

Ok, basically, i don't know what i did wrong.

Me (paladin) and a buddy (warrior) put together and tank (we're both normally dps for raiding) guild hosted PuG for gruuls to get a DST, rest of the loot was rolled for. So the previous week, i MT'd HKM and then i healed in gruul as i didn't feel like fighting the uphill battle of OT'ing while we had a 2nd warrior willing to do it.

This week however it was my turn to tank Olm and Gruul. Well Olm was sent me running, but my problem was when i went to MT gruul. I had assigned 2 hunters for MD's, one for me and one for my warrior friend OT. Started the fight, and i stepped a bit too close and didnt start with a frisbee, so i just HS'd and judged righteousness as i moved him into place and put down consecrate on cooldown.

A few seconds later the warrior pulls ahead (a good distance ahead) of me in threat and I cannot make up the difference. He told me that he was stopping generating threat, but now the melee were gaining on me and if he stopped for much longer, we'd have to all stop and let me start aggro, so i told him to just keep going and MT it.

I know the guy, and he wouldnt pull off me on purpose, but i felt like an idiot. I walked into the fight with 401 spell dmg unbuffed + Unstable Flask of the Sorcerer, Blackened Basilisk and Superior Wizard Oil. I had Sanctuary, i just don't get how i lost threat that fast when i was MD'd, but my only guess is because i stopped the AS (afraid of getting crushed while casting it) i didn't frontload threat like i should've. Also, the other warrior is a bit better geared, but not by any large margin. I don't really know how to compare warrior and pally threat.

Just incase people are wondering also, 0/42/19. No point in linking armory as i am holy for arena's right now and will be ret for the weekend.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:16 am

I don't give a damn to the first hit being a crushing. qq 3k damage.

It could very well be that the second hunter's md just had that extra threat for the warrior to take over. Losing AS does jack things a little. I'd rather take a crushing, he doesn't really hit hard before a few growths.

42/19? Details please.
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Postby Probius » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:20 am

yah, i was thinking it was between the AS and maybe the 2nd hunter giving more threat.

I hadn't really watched the first few growths of gruul's hits on myself and i'd thought that a crushing would be at the worst 3k, i would've taken the risk, but since i was working with all PuG healers, i was a bit more cautious about taking the spike dmg.

Seems like I was chosing between going splat or holding people back and made the wrong choice, guess its just a lesson i need to learn...
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Postby Seloei » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:43 am

sounds like the warrior did a "max threat" rotation as soon as you both arrived, we get more reflective threat and from dot's than from direct attacks. Also in order for him to overtake you at melee range, your MD would have supposed to be very late (or non existant) and your judgement resisted.

Usual raid boss pull (when not on a timer) we use: MD on me, i seal crusader, pop hs, run in, judge (MD fades, i have 2-2.5k threat), seal right, consec, pop wings and start the usual rotation. If a shield toss is applicable i use it as the puller and hs while he comes to me.

Also gruul at early growths hits weakly and you can safely if you missed a shield toss use it and eat a crushing, hell most of the times you have to drink mana pots during the first 2-3 pot cooldowns not to go oom
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Postby sbeacher » Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:36 pm

Usually when I do this fight there is some warrior who is supposed to be the MT and I almost always take aggro from them within the first 20 seconds of the fight.

I usually put all my spell damage gear on though so the problem is once he's on me I'm a little squishier than normal.

I don't think it really matters as long as both of you are on top of the threat list.

Could have been the hunter who was MDing on him was better geared and got some good crits with his initial shots.
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Postby plisken451 » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:06 pm

I experienced this last night in a Gruul, except it was obvious that the Stinky Bear(tm) went in with the intention of stealing aggro from me.

Gruul aggro'd and I barely had enough time to throw the shield, judge righteousness and pop HS before the Stinky Bear(tm) went in with full balls-out heavy dps rotation. Within two seconds, the Stinky Bear(tm) had grabbed aggro, and her threat skyrocketted, leaving me in the dust with no hope of catching her. I announced in vent very angrily that I was just going to stand around and keep wisdom judged, since the Stinky Bears(tm) decided that I shouldn't tank Gruul. After the inevitable wipe, I typed an apology in raid-chat about getting so vocally upset, and to my surprise, the GM PMd me and said to forget the apology because it was obvious that the Stinky Bear(tm) went in with the intention of stealing aggro.

Admittedly, I was only running wizard oil with my normal spelldmg gear (I opted for stam food), but normally, the rest of the dps doesn't come close to me, but with the amped-up badge gear and what-not, I'm finding it harder and harder to hold-off this type of aggressive player.
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Postby Targonis » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:27 pm

My 2 cents: Get all hunters in the raid to Misdirect to you on pull 1 after another and go all out. Fixes all initial threat generation.
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Re: My threat on gruul... what did i do wrong?

Postby Trapspringer » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:05 pm

Probius wrote:Ok, basically, i don't know what i did wrong.

Me (paladin) and a buddy (warrior) put together and tank (we're both normally dps for raiding) guild hosted PuG for gruuls to get a DST, rest of the loot was rolled for. So the previous week, i MT'd HKM and then i healed in gruul as i didn't feel like fighting the uphill battle of OT'ing while we had a 2nd warrior willing to do it.

This week however it was my turn to tank Olm and Gruul. Well Olm was sent me running, but my problem was when i went to MT gruul. I had assigned 2 hunters for MD's, one for me and one for my warrior friend OT. Started the fight, and i stepped a bit too close and didnt start with a frisbee, so i just HS'd and judged righteousness as i moved him into place and put down consecrate on cooldown.

A few seconds later the warrior pulls ahead (a good distance ahead) of me in threat and I cannot make up the difference. He told me that he was stopping generating threat, but now the melee were gaining on me and if he stopped for much longer, we'd have to all stop and let me start aggro, so i told him to just keep going and MT it.

I know the guy, and he wouldnt pull off me on purpose, but i felt like an idiot. I walked into the fight with 401 spell dmg unbuffed + Unstable Flask of the Sorcerer, Blackened Basilisk and Superior Wizard Oil. I had Sanctuary, i just don't get how i lost threat that fast when i was MD'd, but my only guess is because i stopped the AS (afraid of getting crushed while casting it) i didn't frontload threat like i should've. Also, the other warrior is a bit better geared, but not by any large margin. I don't really know how to compare warrior and pally threat.

Just incase people are wondering also, 0/42/19. No point in linking armory as i am holy for arena's right now and will be ret for the weekend.


Why are you using sanc here? Even though your threat is reflective Kings with Ret aura up is much more effective in surviving this fight. But you missing shield throw is huge as well as not getting both misdirects to start...MD has a 2 minute timer...you should have gotten both and Melee dps should never move in till 1st growth/shatter. When I MT Gruuls as my pally I do the following. I will prep Crusader, draw my weapon, throw my shield, Get the MDs, Judge Crusader, Move him to position, Pop Wings, lay conscrate, Use holy shield, and just keep judging rightousness/Seal of blood. I take the first 1-2 hits from him without holy shield...this tops my mana back off so I wont loose it in the long run and can keep rocketing threat off. But I go in with over 18k health :P and a 25% dodge rating and a 18% parry...so usally I get hit an all of 1 good times before I get to holy shield phase of my rotation for gruul. I also find auto swinging with Seal of Blood to be Highly effecient with crusader on and jusging it gives me a .2 more threat then rightousness but after the 2nd growth I wont use blood and opt for rightousness so I dont loose more health then needed. But really I just think its in your threat generation...basically tell the warrior to let you get a good 5-6k threat before he even auto swings and your DPS should always let you move him into position before starting.

THough its rare I get to MT this fight...my guild is highly against a Pally MTing anything and the warriors think they are the only suitable tanks in the game...I basically have to demand to MT a raid boss and threaten them with I absolutly will not come to the next raid if I dont get to MT every now and then. And in my 10 mans the warriors get so pissed when I Exocise Nightbane right off them on landing :P or Wings throw shield on Eagle in ZA to out threat the MD....but I find it hilarious no one on my server really gives paladin tanks credit for more then 5 mans. But I am on the Horde side where we are still new to pallies and the mind set of more then a pally healer scares alot of them.
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Postby Kelaan » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:04 pm

Either have two hunters chain MD you, with only one for the OT, or just have them wait to MD the second tank until you feel it's necessary. I've been that hunter many times, and I know I'd usually just wait. Often, the OT has no problems generating threat (esp as a bear ;)), and thus the misdirect is often better spent (early on, at least) establishing a higher threat ceiling for the main tank.


... and lol at "Stinky Bear (TM)". Funny as heck. :)
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