First time in Gruul's lair

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First time in Gruul's lair

Postby bjanssen » Tue May 13, 2008 2:50 pm

Hi Folks

I need some help figuring out what I'm meant to be doing in the HKM fight.

I took part in my first ever Gruul's lair last weekend and while we managed to down HKM, I felt particularly useless. We didn't attempt Gruul because of time issues.

The raid was 3 casual guilds combined and 15 people had never been in the lair at all so we took it slow. I'm the MT for our guild and we're happily getting through Kara, when we fail it's lack of coordination not gear.

So for the HKM fight the first attempt I was tanking HKM and I got nailed leading to a wipe, the healer on me couldn't keep up with the damage and demanded that I be replaced as tank, which was fine by me.

For the second attempt I was assigned to tank Olm and spent the whole fight trying to run back into position. As a pally tank I'm more vulnerable to fear, but it seems like there has to be a better way and from reading having his felpuppies tank him is best but we didn't have enough warlocks on this run.

But we did succeed on the second attempt and I got my shoulders :).

We're going back in this weekend and I'm really not sure what my best role is in this fight. Should I try and tank the healer, I probably have the highest threat of the tanks and that should allow him to be burned down faster, but I have no way to interrupt his heals.

Is there any way I can be more useful in this fight?

cheers
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Re: First time in Gruul's lair

Postby Robbert » Tue May 13, 2008 3:03 pm

bjanssen wrote:So for the HKM fight the first attempt I was tanking HKM and I got nailed leading to a wipe, the healer on me couldn't keep up with the damage and demanded that I be replaced as tank, which was fine by me.


When you 'got nailed' it was likely a combo of a normal melee, arcing smash, and/or whirlwind. Given your gear level tanking HKM should not be all that difficult. The thing that stood out...it sounds like you had one healer on you? You'd be better off with two if not three healers as they learn how to keep a tank up and time their big heals to land just after an arching smash. If this happens again you should be the one demanding new healers.

bjanssen wrote:For the second attempt I was assigned to tank Olm and spent the whole fight trying to run back into position. As a pally tank I'm more vulnerable to fear, but it seems like there has to be a better way and from reading having his felpuppies tank him is best but we didn't have enough warlocks on this run.


Olm is a PITA for any tank...I've yet to find a tank that likes tanking him. Pallys are actually pretty well suited to tanking Olm, but moreso as they can use exorcisim to keep the felhunters from eating healers until they are properly enslaved. If you're in this role make sure the locks are using the felhunter's taunt ability on Olm and build up as much threat as you can while you're able.

bjanssen wrote:We're going back in this weekend and I'm really not sure what my best role is in this fight. Should I try and tank the healer, I probably have the highest threat of the tanks and that should allow him to be burned down faster, but I have no way to interrupt his heals.


A pally tank should be able to handle Blindeye, Olm, or HKM. Given your gear level you should be more than fine on any of these...although if you have alternate gear sets you'll generally want to go with max threat for Blindeye, max stam for Olm, and a good balanced tanking set on HKM.[/quote]
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Postby Cearn » Tue May 13, 2008 3:05 pm

the healer actually does not need a tank. i got used to tank him when i still raided with my elemental shaman and it worked completely fine. if you are not tanking HKM and not tanking olm either, put your healing gear on and burn some pots. on the other hand, you shouldnt have problems tanking olm. running around is just what you do when tanking him.
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Re: First time in Gruul's lair

Postby darklight » Wed May 14, 2008 8:00 am

Hi Folks
So for the HKM fight the first attempt I was tanking HKM and I got nailed leading to a wipe, the healer on me couldn't keep up with the damage and demanded that I be replaced as tank, which was fine by me.


As another said this leads to believe you only had 1 healer? There should be 2 1/2 healers on you for HKM. You also have a ton of block and you're at the point you might want to start swapping out block for dodge to get more mitigation. Other then that though you should be fine for this fight. Really sounds like healer strat was wrong

2 healers on MT for HKM
1 healer on shammie (once dead healer goes to HKM)
1 healer on lock (once dead healer goes to mage - regain mana)
1 healer on mage
1 healer going between MT/Lock/shammie (gap filling healer)

Most guilds starting Gruuls bring 7 healers at first so there would be 3 dedicated on MT for HKM.

For the second attempt I was assigned to tank Olm and spent the whole fight trying to run back into position. As a pally tank I'm more vulnerable to fear, but it seems like there has to be a better way and from reading having his felpuppies tank him is best but we didn't have enough warlocks on this run.


The chain fears stink, simply put. Run in drop a con get feared out. Hope your locks are doing their job and enslaving fel hounds + taunting with them. Warriors tend to make a better tank cause they can charge back in quicker. At first the enslaving might be rough if your locks are not spell hit capped and could be resisted multi times when trying to enslave.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed May 14, 2008 8:13 am

If you tanked nightbane you can tank Maulgar easy, just takes 2 healers(like nb), maybe 3 if they're unused/undergeared. They just have to know when Arcing Smash and Whirlwind are coming to keep you up against the big hits.

Ask a warlock to do curse of weakness on him and you'll be golden till they come dps him. What was the other tank, a warrior? A Druid? warriors can do TC and Demoralizing shout to greatly reduce incoming damage. This is one of the few fights where it makes a difference because they shouldn't come apply it for you till it's his turn to die.
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Thanks

Postby bjanssen » Wed May 14, 2008 4:08 pm

There were two healers assigned to me for HKM, but both complained that they couldn't do other raid healing while healing me. It was their first time too and I think they were just surprised by the damage HKM put out. The second run used a bear to tank HKM. And I think they were a little more focussed on just keeping the HKM tank up and trusting the other healers to do the other raid healing.

Thanks for the input on Olm, nice to know it wasn't just me being useless :). If I tank him again I'll at least know what to expect.

As for swapping out block, our guild hasn't been running Kara for very long, we only have just enough players, so I'm quite keen to get a few key pieces of gear that will make it easier to juggle dodge and block and still stay uncrushable.

That said, I have focussed on being as high a threat tank as I can because our dps is a little enthusiastic. And block helps threat a lot.
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Re: Thanks

Postby sweeney » Thu May 15, 2008 5:46 am

bjanssen wrote:There were two healers assigned to me for HKM, but both complained that they couldn't do other raid healing while healing me. It was their first time too and I think they were just surprised by the damage HKM put out. The second run used a bear to tank HKM. And I think they were a little more focussed on just keeping the HKM tank up and trusting the other healers to do the other raid healing.


Oh yeah, that's fun, isn't it.

When we were learning Gruul we had about 4 tank deaths at Growth 7-9 or so, leading to a very long and involved conversation on our forums that basically boiled down to "Follow your G-D healing assignment". After like a day of talking about it the paladin MT healer finally understood that, yeah, maybe he shouldn't be trying to heal melee standing in Cavein while the tank is dying.

Ours at least had the class to not blame the tank, that's dirty pool. :) But when you're working with a guild alliance folks are pretty iffy on what they should be doing, so it's just growing pains.

When you're tanking Olm, you just have to relax and go with it. Nobody can avoid the constant deathcoils, but I find that between Avenger's Shield , taunt, and consecrate we're pretty well suited to reposition him while building some threat. (Taunting from max range then runingn to where you want him works better than charging to him, getting him 5 feet towards his desired position, then getting feared again.)
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Re: Thanks

Postby darklight » Thu May 15, 2008 6:28 am

When we were learning Gruul we had about 4 tank deaths at Growth 7-9 or so, leading to a very long and involved conversation on our forums that basically boiled down to "Follow your G-D healing assignment". After like a day of talking about it the paladin MT healer finally understood that, yeah, maybe he shouldn't be trying to heal melee standing in Cavein while the tank is dying.


Yeah we had that too at first on gruul, and after the 2nd time it happened we said if you're not bright enough to move out of something falling on top of you, you're going to be replaced. A DPS should not take damage (except the 1k from shatter) that entire fight and thus could bandage themselves. Granted a bad ground slam/shatter could make you take more dmg, but dps need to learn to bandage or pot themselves and not expect a heal from a healer.

DPS have 3 seconds upon seeing the ground smoke below them to MOVE before they get hit. That doesn't mean finish your attack then prance two steps away, it moves hit escape and run so your not in that area.

Then again for most now adays Gruuls is the first 25 man raid they've ever been on because they never did any pre BC stuff. Sometimes its good going back to ZG or ZQ just to show people and teach people what to do without worrying about an entire wipe.
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