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Reliquary of Souls

Naj'entus, Supremus, Akama, Gorefiend, Gurtogg Bloodboil, RoS, Sharaz, Council, Illidan

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, fiend

Postby jere » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:45 am

So from reading Joana's and Lore's posts, it seems like some neat things to consider:

1. During the 10 seconds of extra threat, pop AW and unload all the upfront threat you can with a really high modifier.

2. The first scream hits really hard, so you should get back a decent enough chunk of mana to do Consecrate, HS, JoR/SoR before you run out of mana.

3. Can pop a mana pot after the 2nd scream to help

4. Can pop a dark rune for the 3rd scream.

So on the surface I see a few strats I can try out. I do have some questions though:

1. How often does the scream come?
2. How many screams do you typically see in an encounter?
3. It seems like there is a lot of incoming damage between the aura of anger and melee dmg (does it melee at all)?
4. From what I have read, seeth is applied whenever it changes target. I wonder if there is any benefit to a DS/cancel after the 4th scream to give yourself (and one other dps'er) the 10s threat buff again, especially if the person below you in threat is a hunter?

In either case, it seems like it would be a fun fight to tank. Sounds pretty challenging.
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Postby Lansky » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:56 am

jere wrote:1. How often does the scream come?
2. How many screams do you typically see in an encounter?
3. It seems like there is a lot of incoming damage between the aura of anger and melee dmg (does it melee at all)?
4. From what I have read, seeth is applied whenever it changes target. I wonder if there is any benefit to a DS/cancel after the 4th scream to give yourself (and one other dps'er) the 10s threat buff again, especially if the person below you in threat is a hunter?

In either case, it seems like it would be a fun fight to tank. Sounds pretty challenging.


I want to say Soulscream has about a 10s cooldown, but this is purely pulling numbers out of my rear from healing our tank. After the first 40s or so of the fight the aura is ticking to the point that I stop paying attention to spike damage and just spam max rank heals regardless.

Yes he melees, relatively hard too. Between aura ticks and the soulscream even a paladin tank would hope to avoid as many of his melee hits as possible especially as the fight progresses.

Unless we do something wrong, when we force a seethe on our tank at the start of the phase (someone not one shotable gets immediate aggro and then RoS is taunted by out MT immediately) EVERYONE in the raid gains seethe. The only reason you do this is to get a large lead and then after it fades all dps goes for broke. Reaquiring a seethe later in the fight would at best be worthless and at worst detrimental.
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Postby jere » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:15 am

Lansky wrote:Reaquiring a seethe later in the fight would at best be worthless and at worst detrimental.


Well, I am coming from the "devil's advocate" side of this fight and assuming there might be a situation that the constant mana draining is keeping me threat limited and the dps is having to hold back. In that case, I see great benefit in 10s of rest if the DPS can go balls to the wall after that again. The alternative might be them simply waiting 5 seconds between a cast/attack each time because if they don't they will pull aggro. Again, I am not sure it is possible, but I prefer to have some idea of what I can try in certain situations.

Sometimes trying things pays off. I like to think outside the box, even if the box sometimes falls on top of me.
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Postby Lansky » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:21 am

You have 90-130s depending on how good/lucky your healers are once phase 3 starts to kill him. 10s for a threat lead is time well spent if you can make use of it. Once the fight starts going you simply cannot ask your raid to stop dps. 10s is already about one tenth of the time you have to kill the boss before the soft enrage of the aura destroys your raid. Another 5-10s is not something I see as possible. If you are threat limited that is your issue in this fight and if it happens consistantly you are an awful choice to tank this phase.

Additionally all your dps tends to be clumped up to allow max use of chain heals. If he swaps to the wrong target when you try this stunt or gets out of position you could end up killing half of your raid.

Try it out and prove me wrong. I just don't see that as having any possible benefit.
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Postby jere » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:27 am

Lansky wrote:You have 90-130s depending on how good/lucky your healers are once phase 3 starts to kill him. 10s for a threat lead is time well spent if you can make use of it. Once the fight starts going you simply cannot ask your raid to stop dps. 10s is already about one tenth of the time you have to kill the boss before the soft enrage of the aura destroys your raid. Another 5-10s is not something I see as possible.

Additionally all your dps tends to be clumped up to allow max use of chain heals. If he swaps to the wrong target when you try this stunt or gets out of position you could end up killing half of your raid.

Try it out and prove me wrong. I just don't see that as having any possible benefit.


So if your dps spends the last 30-50s of the fight having to pause 2-5 seconds between casts, then that will still provide better dps than 10s of rest followed by full out balls to the wall?

Remember I am just trying to look at all the possibilities, no need to come of with such a rude response. I wasn't advocating that this is how it should be, just testing the waters, trying to see what is possible. I wasn't trying to prove you wrong or to use some "stunt", just trying to make the most of our abilities. I never claimed to have any threat issues, so I am not sure why you are implying that that is the case and that I would be an aweful tank.

On a side note, what ability does he use that would wipe the whole raid in one shot? Massive AoE cleave or something? I was thinking on a DS/cancel macro. However, it probably wouldn't work, just tossing up ideas.

Everyone seems so defensive today. I don't go back to the WoW forums much to avoid all of that, not sure why it creeps up here too.
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Postby Lansky » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:42 am

My point was that if your threat is to a point that about 60% through the fight your dps is threat capped and you cannot burn any CD's or such to alleviate this then your threat is simply not high enough for the fight. The majority of the time vanishes, shatters, and so on are saved for phase 3 once phase 2 is smooth, so if a rogue dps' hard, vanishes, dps' hard and hits a threat cap again then it is your issue. Other classes such as spriests, ele shaman, fury warrios, and so on are just gonig to be capped by the nature of their classes.

I refer to using DS to force a seethe on RoS as a stunt because it is. Its a stunt in my eyes the same way bear wall (insta barkskin back to bear) is a stunt a druid can pull off. Why is something being a stunt a bad thing? As far as wiping the raid you would have to time your DS cancel well or you could possibly have him soulscream the raid which is sitting under max health at least half the time, or if you lag at all or fumble with the macro in some way RoS is a fast sob and would most likely bolt over to a Spriest/Lock/Hunter and be out of position. This would cost you even more threat/time.

I'm not sure how you are reading this as rude. I've done this fight many times now and from watching to mechanics would not have the balls to try and force an additional seethe midway through phase 3. So if you do prove me wrong and inform the masses. I have no issue being wrong.
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Postby Lore » Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:54 am

jere wrote:On a side note, what ability does he use that would wipe the whole raid in one shot? Massive AoE cleave or something? I was thinking on a DS/cancel macro. However, it probably wouldn't work, just tossing up ideas.


He has a shadow damage aura that becomes increasingly more powerful the longer he's alive. After about a minute it's doing 5k damage to everyone in the raid every 3 seconds. It's at that point when DPS starts dying, and you have to finish him off quickly.

The issue with a second seethe later on in the fight is that it just plain can't be necessary if you're going to kill the boss.
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Postby jere » Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:18 pm

Lansky wrote:So if you do prove me wrong and inform the masses. I have no issue being wrong.


Again, I am not trying to prove anything. I was just asking questions and looking through some possible ideas.
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Postby Joanadark » Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:40 pm

1. How often does the scream come?


roughly 10 second timer. Not precise and can vary slightly. 10s is the cooldown. He has to then "decide" to use it. But realistically, 10-seconds is accurate.

2. How many screams do you typically see in an encounter?

one every ten seconds. was this a trick question?
typically, if you are taking longer than 100 seconds to defeat phase 3, then its gonna be a wipe.

3. It seems like there is a lot of incoming damage between the aura of anger and melee dmg (does it melee at all)?


This wasn't actually a question.
Yes, he does melee, and melee's pretty hard. Melee and Scream are the primary sources of damage taken at the start, but aura becomes a greater and greater factor over time.

4. From what I have read, seeth is applied whenever it changes target. I wonder if there is any benefit to a DS/cancel after the 4th scream to give yourself (and one other dps'er) the 10s threat buff again, especially if the person below you in threat is a hunter?


Seethe is applied to everyone in the raid.
Additionally, you shouldn't need it.
Additionally, this is really a risk of wiping your entire raid.
Arkham's Razor: a theory which states the simplest explaination tends to lead to Cthulu.
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Postby Splug » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:50 am

For what it's worth, I can offer the warrior's view on this encounter. (I know, I'm one of the bad guys... but I'm trying to research and learn!) With seethe, threat build really didn't seem to be a big problem at all. What DID cause problems for me was the rage burn. GCD's on a threat-sensitive fight are fairly prescious, and it seemed like even if I did burn one refreshing defensive stance to dump rage, it never failed that EoA snuck in a 5k hit right before soulscream, and I'd be scrambling to get a heroic strike/block in while my global cooldown was running. I certainly agree with Joanadark here - a paladin tank's mana mechanic is far superior to the rage mechanic as far as mitigating that spike goes. Yes, you'll take a heavy burn on the first soulscream. Conveniently, that'll be the one where the whole raid is ticking for about 300 on Aura of Anger. From that point on, nice low burns will save healers considerable spike damage healing - even a full thousand mana burned returns less damage than the rage I'd get from one autoattack crit if I can't queue Heroic.

As for continuing threat cycles while low on mana - correct me if I'm wrong (and I probably am - I haven't tanked much past Gruul trash and Curator on my paladin), but doesn't the standard threat cycle to keep a 99% uptime on Holy Shield only involve 3 GCD's per 10 seconds? With soulscream being a faily consistent 10ish second cycle, wouldn't it be possible to just start the Holy Shield -> Consecration -> Judge/Reseal rotation about 4 seconds after Soulscream? That should give ample time for heals to land and restore some mana, and possibly another hit to be healed. It's not a sure shot, but then neither was my warrior getting hit to generate rage for shield slam - and Bloodrage's cooldown isn't much more friendly than mana potions.

I honestly believe EoA is Blizzard's first effort at a tankadin-friendly encounter. It's not a perfect; the mechanics still give paladins some difficulty, and it CAN be done by a warrior. However, I really feel like a warrior tanking here is about as ideal as paladin tanking Azgalor - doable, but at the price of additional risks and strain on healers.

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Postby Lansky » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:58 pm

The issue is in order to maintain a max threat rotation a paladin is hoping to get hit in between the scream in order to regain a bit more mana and even then it only equtes to enough mana to use one more ability. When a warrior or even druid gets hit for 5-8k they tend to receive a full rage bar. Additionally as a healer after the first scream on EoA the MT is by far the most boring heal assignment I can think of. You have to keep him alive for a minute and are given a full mana bar. Hmm lets see, I think I'll just spam my max rank Holy Light until the boss dies.

Its not so much a healing issue as it is a threat issue to me. I am sure I could do it, but a warrior is just a more stable threat generation alternative in a very short burst fight against a non denom/undead target that burns all of my mana every 10s.
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Postby Aetherial » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:48 am

Have any paladins successfully tanked EoA? We're getting into our first serious attempts on this guy Sunday and Monday and trying to figure out the tanking rotation. Our warriors aren't really known for their TPS, so we were talking about me doing P3 >.>
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Postby Mithos » Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:08 am

My issue (Is it an issue?) is that I can't change gear between phases, and as I use my 707 block value gear on him to hold EoS for a long time, I am not really in a fit state to be MTing EoA. My full MT gear has about 452 block value, but the prot warrs will have him in p3 anyway. But should I be MTing him in p3 is this amount of BV enough to be able to hold him for ages in p1?
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Postby Gavel » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:19 am

We do this fight with 1 prot warrior and me, with 2 rogues for the enrages.

P1: Hunter runs in and eats a few hits and trades off with another hunter, then the warrior MT comes in and finishes off that phase until the enrage, which we have a rogue evasion through. As soon as that enrage ends I am there to grab it. I wear my Scarab of Displacement and Auto-blocker for this fight instead of my normal setup, and I've seen full blocks on some hits from her in P1. I generally hold it until death or if DPS is slow we'll have a few seconds of enrage in which the second rogue will grab and evasion through.

P2: I judge light to help with the reflective damage on melee and beat on her with Nightfall. It's not great, but if you get a nice streak of uptime with Nightfall you can almost make up for a kicked Deaden (stupid rogues ><) If you don't have a Nightfall, judge Light and help heal. Be ready to LoH the tank if DPS is slow and the raid zeroes out on mana.

P3: I judge light and heal. And heal. And heal.

Edit: Hi Aetherial! (cates) To answer your question, there's no fucking way anyone should pull aggro off of your MT if you let them take a seethe. When P3 starts, have the MT run in, and just keep them healed, nobody do any DPS. Let Seethe wear off on everyone and light him up.
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Postby Gavel » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:25 am

Mithos wrote:My issue (Is it an issue?) is that I can't change gear between phases, and as I use my 707 block value gear on him to hold EoS for a long time, I am not really in a fit state to be MTing EoA. My full MT gear has about 452 block value, but the prot warrs will have him in p3 anyway. But should I be MTing him in p3 is this amount of BV enough to be able to hold him for ages in p1?


There's really no reason to overload block if you're going to be tanking her later. I do so because the warrior MTs her in P2 and P3, so I just minimize the damage I take while I have her.

You don't really need to do anything special to hold it for a long time in P1. If you have a hunter or two, and a rogue (or two depending on dps) to deal with enrages, you've got plenty of health bars to soak the damage up. Hell, even fury warriors can eat 5-6 seconds of a phase just fine.

I wouldn't say that a paladin can't tank this fight, but there are a LOT of reasons to not use one. Spell reflecting Deaden is only part of it. The screams at the end that burn mana and rage are brutal. It's too easy for the warrior to just switch stances really fast and dump all of their rage. I'm all about Paladins being on the same level as warriors, but this fight just doesn't lend itself to us.
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