Reliquary of Souls

Naj'entus, Supremus, Akama, Gorefiend, Gurtogg Bloodboil, RoS, Sharaz, Council, Illidan

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Postby Joanadark » Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:43 pm

Time for another joanadark wall of text.
y'all ready for this?!

Whenever EoA is taunted, he puts a debuff on the entire raid that triples threat generated for 10 seconds. Most guilds use this to their advantage by having the MT taunt immediately and giving him those 10 seconds to build a threat lead (while hunters misdirect, etc). Obviously you can use Avenging Wrath for these 10 seconds as well, and obviously it stacks. I shouldn't have to tell you just how much of a threat lead you can achieve with 10 seconds at 390% normal threat gen. I'd imagine you can stand to be mana starved for a little while after that.


Power Infusion.
Avenging Wrath.
All misdirects.
Multiplicative effect of "30% more damage" with "damage causes 300% more threat"

This is a fight where a good portion of the threat which will hold you above the DPS is that you front-load.
And aren't we the king of frontloading?



Soul Scream in phase 3 will zero your mana pool every 10 seconds.


At the start of phase 3, click off AI.

Your (note the cooincidence here) 10-second threat-rotation already incorporates a couple seconds of dead zone where you aren't using anything.
In the later portions of the phase, it would be a fairly simple matter to spam Righteous Fury (note: high mana cast instant cast self-buff) a time or two in this natural period already existing within your full-out max threat rotation to dump excess mana.

What's significant about Righteous Fury is that it costs exactly 24% of your base mana. Thats about 750ish I believe.
Global cooldown being 1.5 seconds, 1.5k mana dump can be fit into a well managed threat-rotation cycle fairly neatly with some practice.
Even at the height of the phase with Aura of Anger ticks at their most powerful, a use or two of Righteous Fury is more than enough to counteract the added regeneration from Spiritual Attunement to the healing of that damage.

Also, between phases two and three, you should be able through RF-spam to drop yourself to a low enough mana level that, following your massive front-load burn, the first Scream of the fight will be hitting you no harder than any other scream throughout the phase. Maybe a something a tad under 2k mana would be the place to put yourself at ideally. Don’t forget about the Avenging Wrath mana cost or an opener Avenger’s Shield. You’d want to move out of the ghost-killing dogpile once your health has been topped off so that you can RF-spam yourself down to where you want without getting refilled by their explosion and be ready when Essence of Anger comes out.

It would take a little bit of practice to get a feel for it, again, but this is an advantage you would have OVER a warrior or druid tank.


Both the rage tanks are slaves to the GCD. Every GCD they use that is not dedicated to threat-gen makes their TPS suffer.
Stance Dancing is fine, but it has some big disadvantages...

Number one would be that you cant do that trick on the first Scream, and will take a very heavy burst because of it, because the massive threat-lead sacrifice you would have to make to lose that 2-3 seconds or so of the Seethe duration in order to do so is completely unacceptable, especially considering how their TPS is significantly lower than paladins' anyway, and that it does not enjoy the immense benefit of multiplicative stacking of damage modifiers and threat modifiers that we do.

The second is the timing of it. When exactly does the warrior dance? Dance too early and you will take a melee hit between dumping your rage and the Scream landing, which negates the whole point.
Dance too late and you will eat the Scream while in Battle Stance (I really, really, really, really hope that you aren't risking your life dancing into Berserker), and take a huge amount more damage than you would have otherwise because of lack of your percentile mitigation.

That's an incredibly fine line to ride...


Paladin mana intake is very steadily.
Rage is, by comparison, incredibly jumpy.

Look at the room for error in a scenario like this.
Mana usage as opposed to rage has a very distinct advantage.

What if I, the warrior tank, auto-attack for 450 right before the Scream. Bam, 8 rage. That single unconscious auto-attack made me take 632 more damage than I would have otherwise.
Dear God, if that one auto-attack had happened to crit I’d have taken a burst of 1263 extra damage!

Is a warrior tank expected to turn off his auto-attack before each Scream? Merely hitting the boss is the potential of suicide.

That problem simply won’t exist for a tankadin. They wouldn’t have to live in fear of suddenly filling 15-20% of their mana bar instantly right before a Scream. Jow hardly procs for 800 mana restored all at once.

In the case of either tank being unlucky enough to take power gains due to being melee hit by Essence of Anger right before a Scream and then are Screamed before they have a chance to dump the power gain, not having the time to react because of being trapped by the global cooldown or because they already had some remaining rage/mana in their bar before the hit:
Assume zero rage and zero mana, or simply an equal proportion of current rage/mana.

Paladin takes a hit for 5.5k, he is healed and gains 550 mana from Spiritual attunement.
That 550 mana will be burned from him by Scream and he will take 495 additional damage from the power burn.

Warrior takes a hit for 5.5k. 5.5k damage taken produces exactly 50 rage.
That 50 rage will be burned from him by scream and he will take 4250 additional damage from the power burn.


FOUR THOUSAND DAMAGE. Consider that.
A Paladin would take less than 50% as much damage from the Scream as the warrior would, in exactly the same circumstances of bad luck.



And it was brought up that the paladin would encounter issues with the occasional mana STARVATION in phase three following their initial front-load.
I say……wonderful!

A warrior would HAVE to be going all out 100% of the time to hold aggro off the DPS, but as Lore mentioned with the use of the Seethe mechanic, which is a hundred times more suitable to our threat-generation potential than that of warriors or druids, I have trouble imagining that skipping a consecration (btw, it would be useful on this fight to have several ranks of this spell all on your bars at once) in the occasional 10-second cycle would mean the difference of even the best DPS in the whole world catching us.

Let us be mana starved.



There is one thing, in terms of threat-generation, that has yet to be mentioned about this fight.
Essence of Anger’s aura, the one with stacking shadow damage over time, ALSO stacks an increasing bonus to all damage dealt, increasing as the fight progresses and the number of stacks rises.

This fact is very important.
Again, we have something which favors our specific mechanics above either alternative tanking option.
Namely, we scale with damage. Or we scale better based on damage, to be a bit more precise.

Our threat multiplier is the most generous in the game. We do not rely on innate threat in our abilities. We do not remain bound to our Global Cooldown nearly as much.
And Righteous Fury, good old Righteous Fury, multiplies threat from all holy damage by 190%.

The fight in phase 3 starts out with very low mana intake for a paladin tank. They may often, as Eekpaladin described above, be forced to heavily downrank abilities like Consecration or skip them in a threat cycle completely.

But then the fight goes on, and what happens? At the same time, more and more mana is being granted to you to burn due to Aura of Anger stacking up and up, AND the damage multiplier granted by the aura will also be stacking up and up.

Consecration is a wonderful spell in that it enjoys the most generous spell damage coefficient of any AOE. It consists of one of the biggest pieces of your threat in a max-rank TPS cycle. It is also terribly mana-costly and the main thing downranked in the lack of mana to sustain a full rotation.
Because of the Aura of Anger’s progressive stacking, the more mana-regain progressively permits you to use your biggest threat tool, the more and more powerful it becomes.

While at first glance one may think that this effect on the tank is meaningless because the DPS are all gaining the benefit of this stacking aura too, in actuality it further highlights the massive benefit of our generous threat modifier.

While I don’t know actual numbers on this aspect of the aura, no matter what level of it you are on, the difference between…

(blank)% damage dealt X 190% threat caused by that damage

and …

(blank)% damage dealt X 130% threat generated in Defensive Stance

….is very profound.



In many ways, the threat generation of a warrior is not particularly helped by stacking damage increase effects. It IS, but not consistently, not fully, and not in equal proportion to the way a DPS class’s threat output scales with damage increase effects.

We are different, very different, in that regard.

When a percentile damage increase is applied to both a tanking paladin and a salved DPS class, tankadin threat scales FASTER than that of the dps, not the other way around.




Will a paladin tanking Essence of Anger encounter rage starvation and crippled TPS at a stage of the fight in this phase? Certainly.
But the mechanic of Seethe allowing them to unload a huge burst uncontested gives enough of a lead to make that factor unimportant.
By the time it begins to matter, power-gain rates and the favorable damage multiplier effect will allow the tankadin to outpace their DPS by a steadily increasing margin, particularly in the later stages of the phase when all the DPS will (should) be using all their cooldown abilities and trinkets amplified by heavy stacking of the aura’s multiplier.








This fight is almost beautiful to my eyes.

Zoom out a little bit from the specific details.
We always, myself included, complain about encounter design. We describe a failure to make any use of our real advantages on progression content.
Now look at this fight.
We have here a boss that burns RAGE. In the history of the entire game, that is revolutionary.
We have here a boss that rapidly hits with a flurry of attacks that we, and we alone, are capable of transforming into a string of full blocks. A boss where Ardent Defender makes a massive difference.
We have here a boss that requires a DPS race so time-sensitive that threat-generation is utterly paramount to other concerns, yet so short that a powerful front-loaded threat base makes a tangible difference, and every second earlier the DPS starts counts, and every bit of extra threat ceiling they are given is exponentially beneficial to getting a kill.
Threat has never outweighed other factors before….
Yet here we have a boss in which we not only are directly suited by our mechanics to provide superior threat generation, but ALSO take measurably lower damage.

It seems to me that the Spell Reflect requirements were thrown in only to have at least a reason to bring a prot warrior along at all.
The only advantage over us they bring to the table in phase 1 and 3 is the availability of Last Stand and Shield Wall.
Last edited by Joanadark on Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Joanadark » Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:48 pm

a couple things not mentioned that are relevant:

After each Essence is defeated and goes back into the Reliquary, several ghosts will begin to spawn and head towards the raid. It is imperative that the raid gathers into one spot at this time. The ghosts hit for roughly 600 on cloth, so a few quick heals on anyone about to die should be enough. A ghost releases a holy explosion once it dies, restoring roughly 30% of a player's health and mana in a ~15-yard radius. Therefore it is recommended that any mana-intensive spells, such as making mana gems or summoning new demons be cast at the beginning of the ghost phase so that the players can start with full mana.


Blessing of Sacrifice should be kept on whoever is being fixated in phase one. There's no worry about over-writing someone's buffs for another phase because you can rebuff during the ghosts anyway.
Blessing of Sanctuary is also amazing, and this is a place where people will actually notice it doing something positive and not laugh at it. It's great for Rogues and Affliction locks for phase 2 as well, or any class that does their damage in lots of small hits.
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Postby Mithos » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:09 pm

Interesting stuff Joana :) keep it up.
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Postby Eek » Sun Oct 07, 2007 1:36 pm

Lore wrote:Every time we've killed RoS, I've been the initial P1 tank. I know you're not taking any jabs at me; I merely say this because it's definitely not "nothing". Moreover, tanking for a little while and then doing nothing for the rest of the fight is pretty much the name of the game. It's a recurring theme that starts at Attumen the Huntsman and continues all the way to Illidan. Personally, I keep judgements up and swing my [Nightfall] to help caster DPS.

Having a high block value tank hold EoS up until the first enrage simplifies P1 greatly and lets the rest of the raid focus less on positioning and more on DPS. There's no reason a Prot Paladin can't fill that role. In fact, I would say that a Prot Paladin is best for this. EoS's attack speed is one second. A Warrior will Shield Block, lose his 2 charges, and take 3 hits until SB comes back up. A Prot Paladin can keep his +35% block chance for close to the full duration, and when coupled with a Redoubt proc it's a thing of beauty. And then there's Ardent Defender to consider. Hell, most of the time I'm able to stand by to tank him again after stepping out for the first enrage.

Sure, someone else could do it, but if you're looking for a reason to bring a Prot Paladin in over any other raid member based purely on virtue of class mechanics alone, I think you'll find very few fights in which this is the case. That doesn't make it "anti-Prot Paladin" though, it just means we don't have a free ride.

There's also another situation you overlooked in your P3 analysis: Seethe. Whenever EoA is taunted, he puts a debuff on the entire raid that triples threat generated for 10 seconds. Most guilds use this to their advantage by having the MT taunt immediately and giving him those 10 seconds to build a threat lead (while hunters misdirect, etc). Obviously you can use Avenging Wrath for these 10 seconds as well, and obviously it stacks. I shouldn't have to tell you just how much of a threat lead you can achieve with 10 seconds at 390% normal threat gen. I'd imagine you can stand to be mana starved for a little while after that.

Even after getting our first Reliquary of Souls kill last night (and me being there for it), I'm still not really convinced. I won't pretend to disagree with your phase 1 strategy (my guild just uses me for an enrage), but I still see our usefulness in phases 2 and 3 as shoddy at best. My guild had a few sub-10% wipes on Essence of Anger, and I know they could've been kills if I was in healing gear and not tank gear. Being the weakest link in the chain isn't exactly the greatest feeling on the planet.

And yes, I overlooked Seethe. We thought that its mechanics were entirely different (i.e. someone pulls aggro, they get Seethe debuff, MT taunts it back, and that person is penalized and can't really DPS for the next 10 seconds), but learning the reality of its usefulness changed our phase 3 strategy quite a bit. However, I still see a Prot paladin as being impractical here; if you need a Prot warrior to tank in phase 2, why would you switch over to a Prot paladin to tank in phase 3? Bringing more tanks than what's required for an encounter generally hurts DPS or healing to some degree.

On the plus side, I will note that our RoS kill didn't include Lay on Hands or Shield Wall/Recklessness because we'd blown all of those on the previous wipe. If a Prot paladin could tank phase 3, would Shield Wall and Last Stand help? Sure, but neither seem necessary since most of the fight is in the hands of everyone else.

EDIT: I wish someone had told my guild to do Gurtogg Bloodboil before wasting 2 weeks on Reliquary. Two nights ago, we didn't have a raid for Reliquary, so we decided to go play with Gurtogg. After 7-8 wipes, only having 22 people, and not using any consumables, we got him to 17%. It pains me to know that we could've had him down a long time ago, but at least I got my belt.

Joanadark wrote:At the start of phase 3, click off AI.

The issue wasn't being afraid of taking too much damage from Soul Scream. Rather, it's needing to take more damage from it so you can get more mana back through Spiritual Attunement. The more mana you have, the more mana gets burned, the more damage you take, the more mana you get back.

Joanadark wrote:We have here a boss that burns RAGE. In the history of the entire game, that is revolutionary.

Instructor Razuvious' Disruptive Shout? That's not a new game mechanic by any stretch.

Joanadark wrote:It seems to me that the Spell Reflect requirements were thrown in only to have at least a reason to bring a prot warrior along at all.
The only advantage over us they bring to the table in phase 1 and 3 is the availability of Last Stand and Shield Wall.

If your Prot warrior is using either Last Stand or Shield Wall in phase 1, then there's something desperately wrong. I'd see justification for both more in phase 2 if you go over the 3-minute mark due to a mishap with Deaden.
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Postby Joanadark » Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:06 pm

The issue wasn't being afraid of taking too much damage from Soul Scream. Rather, it's needing to take more damage from it so you can get more mana back through Spiritual Attunement. The more mana you have, the more mana gets burned, the more damage you take, the more mana you get back.



A warrior tanking phase three will demonstratably take less damage than a paladin tanking phase three.
You're complaining about this?

If there is EVER a problem with, as a tank, not taking enough damage and your TPS suffering because of being mana-starved, you should simply regear for higher threat.
And doing so, coincidentally, has the direct effect of amplifying your front-load platform by leaps and bounds, resulting in that head start going further than it was before to last you until you are taking more damage and are less and less mana-starved.

Mana starvation is a problem that is personally correctable. Something that problems like "requires spell reflect" don't share.

I have trouble understanding why you are of the opinion that the mana-intake rate of phase three is insufficient. Even a lucky avoidance string shouldn't mean you are that inhibited...
And I assure you that the same avoidance string on a warrior would be just as problematic or worse.

Unless I've failed to understand you correctly, you're being inconsistant a little bit.
At once, you complain that you take a lot of damage and get hit like a truck, and at the same time complain that you aren't taking nearly damage enough.



From what you've stated, it sounds to me that you're expecting the mana resulting from healing of Scream mana-burn to be providing you more than it has been, and then in response try to hoard up more mana so as to get burned for more.
If this is indeed your thought process, what you're missing is that you will regain significantly less mana from healing of the damage done by mana burn than has to be burned to cause that amount of damage.
It is, for example, far more useful to your threat-generation to pop a Dark Rune or other mana-restoration consumable or ability right AFTER a scream than it is to use it right BEFORE a scream.

Taking a lower amount of damage and then using every scrap of the resulting mana on threat-gen would be far more effective than taking higher amounts of damage and then attempting to maintain it.

I also think that you underestimate the difficulties that are faced by the other tanking classes in the situation facing you in phase 3.
It is a challenging fight to tank.
That's something that is universal.
It isn't evidence of biased mechanics hating your class.

If you feel that your threat generation is below where it needs to be for this phase, then there is a whole number of things you can do to address that.
This isn't an option the other two classes share to any real extent.
Count your blessings.



our usefulness in phases 2


[Nightfall]
JoL

with those two alone, you're practically a shadow priest in terms of value in this phase.
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Postby Joanadark » Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:15 pm

Instructor Razuvious' Disruptive Shout? That's not a new game mechanic by any stretch.


Thinking back, I don't remember Disruptive Shout ever doing a single thing to rage.
We even had a DPS warrior or two on him, so I'm inclined to think it would have been observed if this really was the case.

hmm.

Besides, thats an irrelevant comparison. Rage users were not tanking Instructor Razuvious.

The point I'm saying is significant is that this is the first time there is a boss mechanic that consists of a power-burn that would affect the tank that is dangerous not just for a mana-using tank, but a rage-using tank as well.
Scream is a boss ability which, to my mind, indicates that dungeon encounter designers have started thinking about paladin tanks and at least considering them in their ideas.
It is an ability which is only an issue for the person tanking Anger, yet encorporates elements which present an equal challenge to all three different tank types, rather than simply screwing one as has been so common.


If your Prot warrior is using either Last Stand or Shield Wall in phase 1, then there's something desperately wrong.


You missed the point.
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Postby Joanadark » Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:26 pm

The point I'm saying is significant is that this is the first time there is a boss mechanic that consists of a power-burn that would affect the tank that is dangerous not just for a mana-using tank, but a rage-using tank as well.
Scream is a boss ability which, to my mind, indicates that dungeon encounter designers have started thinking about paladin tanks and at least considering them in their ideas.
It is an ability which is only an issue for the person tanking Anger, yet encorporates elements which present an equal challenge to all three different tank types, rather than simply screwing one as has been so common.


Oh and I also find the Illidari Council encounter potentially encouraging for the same reasons, and more.
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Postby PsiVen » Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:56 pm

Council isn't that exciting. The ret paladin has a 5k-6k nuke that can be reflected every time by a warrior, the mage is tanked by a mage, the priest is interrupt-sensitive, and druids are more reliable than us for picking up the rogue; they can ignore BoSW and Moonfire through BoP. I'm stuck using a Decapitator and my healer's charge when BoSW is up for a pickup. As far as I can tell taunt will go through the BoSW, but the person to taunt is usually out of range.
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Postby Joanadark » Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:36 pm

The Aura of Anger grants 5% increased damage dealt to EoA per stack and adds an additional stack every 3 seconds

So 60 seconds into the phase everyone in the raid is dealing 200% damage.
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Postby Reiyuka » Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:41 pm

Lore wrote: swing my [Nightfall] to help caster DPS.


now THERE's a little trick I'm missing. That's a heck of an idea; I'm going to get right on getting our tanks equipped with these. I'd completely forgotten about that little baby, it's the perfect offtank DPS weapon.
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Postby Lore » Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:35 pm

PsiVen wrote:Council isn't that exciting. The ret paladin has a 5k-6k nuke that can be reflected every time by a warrior, the mage is tanked by a mage, the priest is interrupt-sensitive, and druids are more reliable than us for picking up the rogue; they can ignore BoSW and Moonfire through BoP. I'm stuck using a Decapitator and my healer's charge when BoSW is up for a pickup. As far as I can tell taunt will go through the BoSW, but the person to taunt is usually out of range.


Just have hunters ready to misdirect when he BoSW's. I don't feel any less effective than anyone else here.
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Postby Mithos » Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:41 pm

Disruptive Shout did not burn rage.
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Postby fiorina » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:46 pm

Scream is a boss ability which, to my mind, indicates that dungeon encounter designers have started thinking about paladin tanks and at least considering them in their ideas.


I loled :)

Reliquary has been designed to piss off paladin tanks. No matter how you spin it, warrior(as MT) or feral druid(Tank+DPS+battleress) is always a better choice for progression attempts on this fight... Sad but true.
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Postby PsiVen » Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:30 pm

Lore wrote:Just have hunters ready to misdirect when he BoSW's. I don't feel any less effective than anyone else here.


True, I forgot all about that. We killed Shahraz and Council with 0 hunters :P
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Postby Eek » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:31 am

Joanadark wrote:Unless I've failed to understand you correctly, you're being inconsistant a little bit.
At once, you complain that you take a lot of damage and get hit like a truck, and at the same time complain that you aren't taking nearly damage enough.

Inconsistent? My issue was not getting enough mana back through Spiritual Attunement in order to continue to build threat. I mean, when DPS warriors are getting chain Bloodthirst crits for 8k, warlocks getting Shadowbolt crits easily exceeding 14k, etc., I think I have a right to be a bit nervous about holding threat even with Seethe given that avoidance streaks will hurt us early in the phase yet be essential for later when the entire raid is taking a lot of damage and not every healer is going to be consistently on you.

Can you use a mana pot? Yes. Can you use a dark rune? Yes. But that's only good for 2 Soul Screams. Phase 3 isn't going to give you a chance for either to come off cooldown, and even if you were to get to that point, damage from Aura of Anger would be ticking for over 3.6k (more like 4k since you'd wait until after the first Soul Scream).

Joanadark wrote:From what you've stated, it sounds to me that you're expecting the mana resulting from healing of Scream mana-burn to be providing you more than it has been, and then in response try to hoard up more mana so as to get burned for more.
If this is indeed your thought process, what you're missing is that you will regain significantly less mana from healing of the damage done by mana burn than has to be burned to cause that amount of damage.

I already made this point earlier. The first Soul Scream will cause the most damage, but after that, you'd need to rely upon being hit to continue building threat since every other Soul Scream isn't going to give you as much mana back through Spiritual Attunement.

Joanadark wrote:If there is EVER a problem with, as a tank, not taking enough damage and your TPS suffering because of being mana-starved, you should simply regear for higher threat.

I think I'm probably a poster child for higher threat on Prot paladins, and you know what? That means sacrificing avoidance and health. You also know what? That sometimes doesn't mean much if a rogue gets chain WF procs or a warlock gets 8k Shadowbolt spam. Not to mention that guilds tend to want their tanks to have more health and avoidance rather than less.

Joanadark wrote:I also think that you underestimate the difficulties that are faced by the other tanking classes in the situation facing you in phase 3.
It is a challenging fight to tank.
That's something that is universal.

Our primary MT came back on the day we killed Reliquary of Souls because his computer had been broken for 3 weeks. He doesn't watch videos or read strategies since he's often too busy with college taking 22 credits this semester. Before then, we'd been using our 2nd MT to get us through Hyjal Summit and the rest of Black Temple. When practicing Reliquary, it wasn't uncommon for the 2nd MT to be on GCD for phase 2 and miss spell reflecting Deaden, and he was a part of our numerous phase 3 wipes even after we'd learned of the usefulness of Seethe.

Our primary MT came back, missed one Deaden in phase 2 (which we barely recovered from), and tanked phase 3 to a 6% wipe. His first time ever on the encounter. The next attempt, we killed Reliquary. You know what he said in tank chat afterwards? "grabbing defenders on shade is more fun than ros".

He didn't find it very challenging. The only abnormal thing he did in his threat rotation was use Spell Reflect on phase 2. That's it. Was he particularly rage starved in phase 3? Didn't seem like it since he was over 50k threat ahead of everyone else by the end.

Joanadark wrote:If you feel that your threat generation is below where it needs to be for this phase, then there is a whole number of things you can do to address that.
This isn't an option the other two classes share to any real extent.
Count your blessings.

Err... Enhancement shaman? Strength of Earth Totem and Windfury/Grace of Air Totem not to mention Heroism. Throw in a Survival hunter for Expose Weakness and a BM hunter or two for Ferocious Inspiration. Hell, even a DPS warrior in party for Battle Shout.

Do Prot paladins still have options? Yes, but don't act like the other two tanking classes are far more limited. There's plenty available in raids to augment their threat generation were it necessary to do so.
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