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Illidan Stormrage

Naj'entus, Supremus, Akama, Gorefiend, Gurtogg Bloodboil, RoS, Sharaz, Council, Illidan

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, fiend

Postby Aetherial » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:45 am

Targeros:

All of the frames (except the unitframes) were done with eePanels2, just make the panels individually and size/arrange them to fit your screen and needs. I did that first, then resized and configured the other mods to fit inside them.

Buffbars are Elkano's Buffbars (new version) sized down to fit inside the far left eePanel.

Unitframes (myself/target/target's target) are agUnitframes (I forgot exactly which setting it is that makes it look the same as the eePanel borders).

Chatbox is Prat, resized to fit inside the eePanel.

Actionbars are Bartender 3 (which I kind of hate but I'm too lazy to mess with an alternative). The aura bar is part of Bartender 3 as well, with the button spacing modified to make the bar width match the others. The other action bars are also modified with size and spacing to fit the eePanel.

Minimap is Squeenix, again, resized to fit the eePanel. I tend to turn off pretty much all of my minimap mod icons.

Raidframes are Grid, if you look closely you'll note that the eePanel that it's in is not perfectly square (eyestrain while doing them ftl), so it's not as anally-retentively perfect as I'd like (Grid can't be altered to all dimensions, it's completely determined by number of raid members and thus the scale... and it's easier to adjust the Grid panel while in a full raid. I set mine to only show groups 1-5, but you can show the whole raid if you choose to.)

The far right panel is taken up by Omen, then PallyPower, then a vertical actionbar from Bartender 3.

Bar at the bottom is FuBar obviously, you can use whatever plugins you want for it, I personally like having the minimenu and bag ones so it's less action bars to screw around with.

The long bar on top of the minimap holds my Quartz castbar. I also use ClassTimers (which show up above the mob portrait) to track stuff like Nightfall proc, JoV, etc. There's also a hidden mouseover actionbar above my portrait that has my mounts and a couple of other useful things.

I haven't made a far far right panel because I'm lazy and too stupid to figure out how to make tooltips go away ><
Last edited by Aetherial on Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Vanifae » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:46 am

Aetherial wrote:I assure you that I tanked in relatively crummy gear compared to you and probably 90% of the warriors that MT'ed Illidan for progression kills. For my guild at least, they considered a paladin MT to be a superior option when compared to a warrior for two primary reasons: 1) the ability to stack avoidance without sacrificing threat (at least to the degree of a warrior) and 2) because of the increased TPS and mitigation by not having to "save" Shield Block. The added threat from Exorcism (as well as the additional ease with scooping him up on transitions) was just the icing on the cake. It must have worked for us, because not only did I not eat Shears (granted, that was once I figured out how to eliminate the latency gap problem for this fight at least), but we killed him with more than 4 minutes remaining on the Enrage on our progression kill. In comparison, the other guild on our server did their progression kill with a warrior MT in 4/5 T6, did have to deal with Shears, and killed him with about 15 seconds remaining on the enrage timer. I can't speak for their transitions, but we all know that we as paladins excel at snap aggro compared to warriors... so it's safe to assume that those transitions weren't as snappy either.

Can this fight be tanked by warriors? Sure, it can. However, I think that the argument that warriors are the best MT's for this fight be it in farm or progression is no longer valid. So many fights are not MT'ed by paladins in progression only because guilds tend to gear their warriors primarily and let paladins pick up the scraps left behind, and with our Tier 6 loot group being awful (you don't want to know how many priests and warlocks are in my guild), it's harder to pick up Tier pieces as well. In addition, many guilds are reluctant to let a paladin obtain the experience of MT'ing bosses, because warriors have been the staple tank for so long. That being said, especially at this level of content, tankadins tend to be more informed on fight mechanics, theorycrafting, what have you... because we have to be. We're still fighting for every second of MT time that we can get, whereas warriors are able to just stroll in and tank things purely based on their class rather than on skill and raiding knowledge.

Any tank that is inexperienced or undergeared will have problems with progression (and some farm) content, regardless of class. Warrior and paladin tanks are at the point in development now where they are nearly equal in terms of MT viability, and now it is coming down to the player behind the character, rather than just blindly saying "oh, let's have the warrior do it." Yes, there are some fights where it's best for us to let the warriors tank, and there are fights for which we are better suited than the warriors, and of course, there are fights where it's a toss-up. However, so many fights are dubbed "tankadin unfriendly" with very little data to support that decision. I remember Eek and Joanadark going at it about Essence of Anger for pages on end... and look, it's actually quite tankadin FRIENDLY. I know my guild isn't planning on using a warrior on that fight anytime soon if they can avoid it.

Let us not forget that Nihilum and similar guilds were pushing content while most tankadins were still figuring out that they COULD tank. Let us not forget that warriors were primed and polished as a tanking class while Blizzard was still working out our mechanics in the basement somewhere. Do you think Nihilum would have cleared Hyjal faster if they'd known what a tankadin could do?

It is not a question of warriors being the best for progression, it is a matter of availability. Tankadins are the rarest class/spec combo in the game right now, and endgame tankadins rarer even still. Not all guilds have the luxury of being able to field a fully-geared, experienced tankadin, but that does NOT mean that we are not as viable, or even more so, than a warrior.

Raiding guilds have moved away from just having one MT and instead have to work as a MT team... and this is a paradigm shift not only for us and the warriors, but all raiding players. For those of us raiding T6 content, it's easy to forget that most of the raiding community is blithely ignorant of the potential of a skilled tankadin in action. I'm not talking about a Karazhan offtank, or a holy paladin that respecs and tosses on tank gear once a week for Hyjal. The number of MT tankadins is still very small, and as a result, it's easy to maintain that "oh, warriors are superior" attitude... because by nature, you're going to trust what you have experience with over what you don't.

Some of us have been around long enough to remember when you could "only tank Patchwerk with Druids"... and I don't know about you guys, but back in those days I was a warrior MT and we didn't use a single damn druid on that fight. We are in a similar situation right now as warriors were when Patchwerk was progression content. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot by saying "oh, we can't do this" without enough data, shall we?

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Postby Joanadark » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:53 am

Well said my friend, very, very well said.
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Postby Splug » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:40 am

Very well said. For what it's worth, paladin tanks are not the first class/spec to run into this stigma, and in almost every case it has only proved a matter of time before reality outshined false prejudice. I know my own guild used to be quite biased against shadow priests and enhancement shaman; now we throw rogues and hunters out of raids to get the off-spec damage into raids if they're late. Creating a diverse group of classes in each role can add a lot to a raid, simply by virtue of giving more on-the-fly customization; it's just a matter of time before the community accepts it.

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Postby Lave » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:18 pm

situation: my guild has downed 8/9 BT and will start progression on illidan right after a short
brake due christmas etc.. letting me as their raidleader quite some time to prepare the tactics.

theres a tauren warrior as well as a tauren druid + me :> - equal in terms of skill and equipment.
both of them already have full fireresistance gear, i dont - so im asking hereby for your objective
opinion:

should i tank illidan and let them tank the blades or:
should i equip myself with fireresistance (not a problem at all) and let one of them (warrior i gues) tank illidan.

im seriously looking for the best solution for my guild.. personal ambition is not the subject here.
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Postby Splug » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:32 pm

All other factors equal, a warrior or a paladin can tank Illidan himself without a huge fuss either way (the druid cannot, due to the shear mechanic). The paladin will have an edge in threat generation, as well as an easier time handling shear. Either way, the difference to p1/3/5 is fairly minor. The bottleneck for the encounter is phase 2, and for that you want one tank who can generate a maximum amount of threat while wearing resistance gear. Anything at all works for the other tank.

Just to put Illidan's damage into perspective: our third kill featured me in 300 fire resistance tanking a full p3 cycle, because the guy who was supposed to be tanking him dropped dead as he landed from phase 2. We raised him during phase 4 and he finished the fight, but from a perspective of myself having never tanked the big guy before and wearing fairly horrible tanking gear, it was still managable. I had even used all my trinkets/cooldowns during p2, so it's not like we crutched it on shield wall either.

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Postby Cakes » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:03 pm

In all seriousness Lave, you should probably tank Illidan. We're running into the same sort of crunch time now, and I personally think it would be better to save your energy and resources for tanking Illidan on your pally and letting the two other tanks (already with gear) tank the adds. This gives you time to do more important things, like farm Primal Fires for fire resist pots. This saves the time required to get the badge gear for FR (unless you already have the badges), time which could be spent on Illidan.

In response to Splug's comments earlier about classes and things they've tried, I'd suggest trying a boomkin as well as your other experiments. Like Ret Paladins, they are really gear dependent, but bring some exceptional versatility to the raid. Shockingly enough, it's your melee that will become addicted to having a boomkin around, so be warned.
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Postby Splug » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:23 pm

Cakes wrote:In response to Splug's comments earlier about classes and things they've tried, I'd suggest trying a boomkin as well as your other experiments. Like Ret Paladins, they are really gear dependent, but bring some exceptional versatility to the raid. Shockingly enough, it's your melee that will become addicted to having a boomkin around, so be warned.


We actually ran a moonkin druid for a while, and were starting to get his gear to the point where his damage was getting competative. Having a third combat raise was all kinds of useful, as well. Then one day he just up and deleted his character. We debated replacing him, but the problem we ran into was that with two elemental shaman and a shadow priest, there just wasn't enough room for everything at once. The mages grumbled about not getting a replacement moonkin until I told them we were bringing a second shadow priest back from reserve to full member instead, to ensure they could have one as well as the healers. I've never seen an entire group of people drop an argument so fast...

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Postby Joanadark » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:11 pm

In all honesty, Shield Wall is a heck-ton more likely to save the raid from wiping on a flame-tank in phase 2 than on the main tank in the later phases.
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Postby Atreidies » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:35 pm

Joanadark wrote:In all honesty, Shield Wall is a heck-ton more likely to save the raid from wiping on a flame-tank in phase 2 than on the main tank in the later phases.


Saving you 5 minutes worth of an attempt versus 25?
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Postby Teckbot » Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:18 pm

Aetherial wrote:I assure you that I tanked in relatively crummy gear compared to you and probably 90% of the warriors that MT'ed Illidan for progression kills.


Unless you have received a heavy dose of upgrades (the Shield being an obvious one) since your progression kill, you have far more BT/Hyjal gear than I did when I tanked Illidan - I had the shoulders/head and Kaz's shield, with the rest being T5 (no T5 crafted) and T4 gear. Since then I have upgraded almost every piece of gear except my chestpiece and belt, so my current armory is no indication of what my healers had to suffer through. Nerf Devilshark Cape.

I did that fight with 19941hp fully-buffed (not counting Nightmare Seed), and he could easily take me down with three hits due to my less-than-stellar armor and block value. As a result, I could really feel the lack of any Shield Wall or Last Stand during the transitions - most notably the 30% bubble transition. The only Shear I ate was during Phase 4/5 immediately after the Bubble transition when Holy Shield wore out before the server recognized that I had cast it again.

2.3 addressed some of my main concerns, so some of my comments I made on the boards are now moot:
- The HP buff and badge gear has helped tremendously to overcome the gear-gap that the starting off ProtPally faced.
- An unintended side effect of the server-side latency change for spells seems to have effectively negated the .5-1second lag-gap that Holy Shield could incur, but only if you spam the button when the cooldown is wearing off.

Aetherial wrote:For my guild at least, they considered a paladin MT to be a superior option when compared to a warrior for two primary reasons: 1) the ability to stack avoidance without sacrificing threat (at least to the degree of a warrior) and 2) because of the increased TPS and mitigation by not having to "save" Shield Block. The added threat from Exorcism (as well as the additional ease with scooping him up on transitions) was just the icing on the cake. It must have worked for us, because not only did I not eat Shears (granted, that was once I figured out how to eliminate the latency gap problem for this fight at least), but we killed him with more than 4 minutes remaining on the Enrage on our progression kill. In comparison, the other guild on our server did their progression kill with a warrior MT in 4/5 T6, did have to deal with Shears, and killed him with about 15 seconds remaining on the enrage timer. I can't speak for their transitions, but we all know that we as paladins excel at snap aggro compared to warriors... so it's safe to assume that those transitions weren't as snappy either.


I can't recall ever saying that threat was ever a problem for Illidan for Warriors, because I have yet to hear any Warrior actually complain about threat in that fight. Phase 2 is the only phase that has any sort of urgency about it when it comes to DPS - the rest of the fight is about survival, not threat, and THAT is where we had issues.

Emphasis on HAD. It's still skewed slightly towards Warriors due to their OhShit abilities during the last part of the fight. And when it can take 14+minutes to get to phase 4/5, extra survivability is an enormous gain.

Aetherial wrote:Can this fight be tanked by warriors? Sure, it can. However, I think that the argument that warriors are the best MT's for this fight be it in farm or progression is no longer valid. So many fights are not MT'ed by paladins in progression only because guilds tend to gear their warriors primarily and let paladins pick up the scraps left behind, and with our Tier 6 loot group being awful (you don't want to know how many priests and warlocks are in my guild), it's harder to pick up Tier pieces as well. In addition, many guilds are reluctant to let a paladin obtain the experience of MT'ing bosses, because warriors have been the staple tank for so long.


Actually, the main issue used to be that ProtPally Tier 4 and Tier 5 pale in comparison to the Warrior equivalents. The Badge gear from 2.3 helps fix that, filling in where the off-set and Tier pieces were weak.

Aetherial wrote:That being said, especially at this level of content, tankadins tend to be more informed on fight mechanics, theorycrafting, what have you... because we have to be. We're still fighting for every second of MT time that we can get, whereas warriors are able to just stroll in and tank things purely based on their class rather than on skill and raiding knowledge.


I completely agree and this is why I love these boards and the EJ ProtPally threads. We may be a minority, but adversity has certainly made us stronger.

Aetherial wrote:Any tank that is inexperienced or undergeared will have problems with progression (and some farm) content, regardless of class. Warrior and paladin tanks are at the point in development now where they are nearly equal in terms of MT viability, and now it is coming down to the player behind the character, rather than just blindly saying "oh, let's have the warrior do it." Yes, there are some fights where it's best for us to let the warriors tank, and there are fights for which we are better suited than the warriors, and of course, there are fights where it's a toss-up. However, so many fights are dubbed "tankadin unfriendly" with very little data to support that decision.


I agree, for the most part - it's coming down to the OhShit buttons at this point. Once we get some (better) tools to mimic Warriors in this regard, I suspect that we'll see a large swing towards us as viable progression tanks.

And the tsunami of tears from Warriors will rip the General Forum to splinters...

Aetherial wrote:I remember Eek and Joanadark going at it about Essence of Anger for pages on end... and look, it's actually quite tankadin FRIENDLY. I know my guild isn't planning on using a warrior on that fight anytime soon if they can avoid it.


Essence of Anger is quite fun, and our threat scaling in that fight is awesome. My primary concern, again, focuses on the tail-end of that fight when the damage starts to build to incredible levels and people start dying off... Shield Wall&Last Stand trumps the Bubble&Taunt-for-two-seconds.

Aetherial wrote:Let us not forget that Nihilum and similar guilds were pushing content while most tankadins were still figuring out that they COULD tank. Let us not forget that warriors were primed and polished as a tanking class while Blizzard was still working out our mechanics in the basement somewhere. Do you think Nihilum would have cleared Hyjal faster if they'd known what a tankadin could do?

It is not a question of warriors being the best for progression, it is a matter of availability. Tankadins are the rarest class/spec combo in the game right now, and endgame tankadins rarer even still. Not all guilds have the luxury of being able to field a fully-geared, experienced tankadin, but that does NOT mean that we are not as viable, or even more so, than a warrior.


If Nihilum had access to an equivalently-geared ProtPally during their push, they wouldn't have wanted him, even in Hyjal. Sure it would have made the TRASH easier, but the BOSSES were what they were struggling against.

I don't like Nihilum's "this is the way it is" point of view, but the bleeding-edge of progression is pretty cut-throat. The problem with Nihilum's "lol protadin" statements is that players that are nowhere near their skill level think that if they mimic Nihilum completely then they will do just as well. This results in less out-of-the-box thinking and dismissal of viable ProtPallys at a level where tools/gear differences are far less of an issue.

Aetherial wrote:Raiding guilds have moved away from just having one MT and instead have to work as a MT team... and this is a paradigm shift not only for us and the warriors, but all raiding players. For those of us raiding T6 content, it's easy to forget that most of the raiding community is blithely ignorant of the potential of a skilled tankadin in action. I'm not talking about a Karazhan offtank, or a holy paladin that respecs and tosses on tank gear once a week for Hyjal. The number of MT tankadins is still very small, and as a result, it's easy to maintain that "oh, warriors are superior" attitude... because by nature, you're going to trust what you have experience with over what you don't.


I'm not sure it's as big as a paradigm shift for experienced raiders - 40-man raids had more than one tank performing valuable roles during boss encounters and trash fights.

One issue, I suspect is that there are a lot MORE people that never saw the 40-man raids and primarily experienced the game through 5-man raids where only one tank was needed. WoW has grown in size by leaps and bounds since this time last year...

Aetherial wrote:Some of us have been around long enough to remember when you could "only tank Patchwerk with Druids"... and I don't know about you guys, but back in those days I was a warrior MT and we didn't use a single damn druid on that fight. We are in a similar situation right now as warriors were when Patchwerk was progression content. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot by saying "oh, we can't do this" without enough data, shall we?


I've made a concerted effort to avoid saying that we CAN'T tank progression content, instead saying that it was/is HARDER for us.

For a long time it has been more difficult for us to tank progression content, due in part to lackluster itemization, talents, and abilities. 2.3 helped greatly with this, but a severely undergeared Warrior tank is still slightly better for tanking a boss than a severely undergeared Paladin tank. Sometimes that can make all the difference.
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Postby fiorina » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:27 pm

Lave wrote:situation: my guild has downed 8/9 BT and will start progression on illidan right after a short
brake due christmas etc.. letting me as their raidleader quite some time to prepare the tactics.

theres a tauren warrior as well as a tauren druid + me :> - equal in terms of skill and equipment.
both of them already have full fireresistance gear, i dont - so im asking hereby for your objective
opinion:

should i tank illidan and let them tank the blades or:
should i equip myself with fireresistance (not a problem at all) and let one of them (warrior i gues) tank illidan.

im seriously looking for the best solution for my guild.. personal ambition is not the subject here.


I would let druid tank first-to-kill flame and you should pick the second one.

Druid is receiving highest incoming damage and it's sometimes hard to heal as 13k crits happens on them from time to time. You don't want him mess around with flame guy for a long time.
You should tank second Flame as incoming damage to you is the same or even lower compared to warrior because of AD. I can feed you with some WWS to save you from being burned on pyre as your guild will blame you for heresy and blasphemy.
Also your threat pimped by exorcism will allow your raid to unload sick DPS which would lead to shorter Phase 2.

But most important, you don't want some silly cow or hippie treehugger to do the hardest part of the encounter. You might need to avoid up to 6 eye beams. Some Blood Elf sophistication is required.

Let cow MT him, it's easy to smash shield block without GCD when Shear is casted. To prevent all misunderstandings in case he decide to use brain, position yourself on the top of the trap in Phase 4 and let warrior monkey intervene you :)
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Postby enbee » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:15 am

Atreidies wrote:
Joanadark wrote:In all honesty, Shield Wall is a heck-ton more likely to save the raid from wiping on a flame-tank in phase 2 than on the main tank in the later phases.


Saving you 5 minutes worth of an attempt versus 25?


You're so much more likely to wipe due to a tank death in p2 then in p5, I tanked all the enrages without trapping fine on our first kill, I didn't look like dying once.
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Postby kalbear » Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:51 pm

I've made a concerted effort to avoid saying that we CAN'T tank progression content, instead saying that it was/is HARDER for us.

For a long time it has been more difficult for us to tank progression content, due in part to lackluster itemization, talents, and abilities. 2.3 helped greatly with this, but a severely undergeared Warrior tank is still slightly better for tanking a boss than a severely undergeared Paladin tank. Sometimes that can make all the difference.
But the thing is, Teck - why didn't you have the T6 gear? Why did the warrior? I would imagine the reason was because you weren't the #1 tank in your guild or you didn't win the rolls or whatever, and they did.

So yeah, having a paladin who is undergeared tank the final boss in the game is hard, and might be harder than a prot warrior who is undergeared. But that's not the normal state of affairs. Usually guilds don't progress that way, as far as I can tell; they focus on gearing up their primary tank, healer, and then secondary tanks, DPS and healers. If you had gotten first crack at the T6 loot, how much better would you have done?

I can't really say more without comparing you and the warrior directly, but to me it sounds like you're saying that paladins that don't get the drops have a hard time tanking higher content. That's true. But that's true of everyone, and the conclusion isn't that paladins aren't as good as warriors, it's that undergeared paladins aren't as good as undergeared warriors.

I guess another way to put it is this: with you not being MT for Illidan, your guild did not progress. With you being MT for Illidan, it did. To me, that means that the progression was easier with you. Whether that's because of your gear, the encounter, your skill or the warrior's lack, or the general makeup of the party I can't say. But to me, that shows the exact opposite of your point; an undergeared warrior had a harder time tanking because they did not succeed. You had an easier time tanking because you did.
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Postby Teckbot » Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:27 pm

kalbear wrote:But the thing is, Teck - why didn't you have the T6 gear? Why did the warrior? I would imagine the reason was because you weren't the #1 tank in your guild or you didn't win the rolls or whatever, and they did.


The warrior had the same amount of T6 as I: the gear difference between his ProtWar T5 and my ProtPally T5 was noticeable.


kalbear wrote:So yeah, having a paladin who is undergeared tank the final boss in the game is hard, and might be harder than a prot warrior who is undergeared. But that's not the normal state of affairs. Usually guilds don't progress that way, as far as I can tell; they focus on gearing up their primary tank, healer, and then secondary tanks, DPS and healers. If you had gotten first crack at the T6 loot, how much better would you have done?


Random Drops can lead to some peculiar armor distributions - almost no Pally/Warlock/Priest tokens had dropped, so I can't say.

I can say that it would have been significantly easier with the buffs we received in 2.3 - there were several attempts that were wipes because I took barely enough damage to kill me.

kalbear wrote:I can't really say more without comparing you and the warrior directly, but to me it sounds like you're saying that paladins that don't get the drops have a hard time tanking higher content. That's true. But that's true of everyone, and the conclusion isn't that paladins aren't as good as warriors, it's that undergeared paladins aren't as good as undergeared warriors.


That's... that's exactly what I'm saying. The problem with this is that, after all the number-crunching has been done, the bleeding-edge raiders will only go for what is absolutely the best. Afterwards they make the strategy guides and tell all the other raiders under them what is the best... it's a "trickle-down" effect. Until we start getting some fights that we dominate hands-down, the burden of proof is on us.

kalbear wrote:I guess another way to put it is this: with you not being MT for Illidan, your guild did not progress. With you being MT for Illidan, it did. To me, that means that the progression was easier with you. Whether that's because of your gear, the encounter, your skill or the warrior's lack, or the general makeup of the party I can't say. But to me, that shows the exact opposite of your point; an undergeared warrior had a harder time tanking because they did not succeed. You had an easier time tanking because you did.


The reason I was the MT was because we had just lost our primary Warrior Off-Tank (real life issues) and I did not have a fire-resist suit to tank the flames... but our normal Warrior MT had such a suit. We were racing for a server-first with another guild, so we literally did not have the time to gear me up for the flames, and our third tank was a BareTank. It was a very odd set of circumstances that shouldn't be taken as "normal."

After 2.3, it's obvious that this fight has tilted greatly towards us. Once you reach the HP threshold that allows you to survive 21k in 1.5 seconds, the OhShit abilities of Warriors become less of an issue and our bonuses in threat become more apparent.

I will note, however, that being able to Intervene someone standing on a trap is huge in phase 5 - another advantage Warriors have during enrages.
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