Illidan Stormrage

Naj'entus, Supremus, Akama, Gorefiend, Gurtogg Bloodboil, RoS, Sharaz, Council, Illidan

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, fiend

Postby Lansky » Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:05 pm

enbee wrote:GM sorted it rather quickly, only took a day, got a MH warglaive, shield(me yay) and dps staff :>


The rumors are true. There are guilds out there that actually get good loot. On the plus side last night we got our 7th Shard of Azzinoth!
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Postby Lore » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:11 am

Lansky wrote:
enbee wrote:GM sorted it rather quickly, only took a day, got a MH warglaive, shield(me yay) and dps staff :>


The rumors are true. There are guilds out there that actually get good loot. On the plus side last night we got our 7th Shard of Azzinoth!



EEeeewwwwww
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Postby enbee » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:17 am

Ive done some calculations and I've come up with the following result

Illidan * Paladin MT = Warglaive
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LoL, a paladin tank!
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Postby Lore » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:24 am

enbee wrote:Ive done some calculations and I've come up with the following result

Illidan * Paladin MT = Warglaive


Incorrect, when I tanked him we got garbage =(
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Postby enbee » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:59 am

My apolagies, corrected!

Illidan * Paladin MT + x = Warglaive

x = first kill
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LoL, a paladin tank!
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Postby Lore » Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:00 am

KHAAAAAAAN
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Postby guillex » Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:20 am

Lore wrote:KHAAAAAAAN


*shakes fist*
Póg mo thóin
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Postby Teckbot » Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:56 am

fiorina wrote:Indeed, I was saying that for couple of months :) He can hit for 14k, but it indicated you are severely undergeared/non-fully-potted for the encounter.
Especially when Teckbot posted such a QQ post about paladin Ilidan tanking viability on US forums and every single Nihilum member quoted it

but anyway, who cares now, we will see how Sunwell and WotLK will look like


*shrug*

We've improved tremendously thanks to the buffs in 2.3. It's awesome and I love it to bits. Having more HP than our MT now (fully buffed) makes me warm and fuzzy inside.

As for "undergeared," I think that's one of the points I was trying to make - the world firsts (EU, US, China) for this latest round of content all used "undergeared" Warriors, and I feel there's no way a similarly-geared ProtPally could have accomplished the same feats.

Also, to bring about changes sometimes you need to present things in an... exaggerated light.

fiorina wrote:...and every single Nihilum member quoted it

Not the intent, sadly. Do you have any links or search parameters for these? My Google-Fu is weak and work is busy.
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Postby Joanadark » Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:54 pm

Nihilum Forums:


[Random Guy]: Would you guys ever use a Paladin main tank?

[Awake]: You're obviously trolling. You know what our reply will be and you're just setting it up for yet ANOTHER "Tankadin r SO GUD" thread. Die in a fire.

[Random Guy]: You're dumb, some girl named Lore tanked Illidan without even wearing armor and with rez sickness.

[Awake]: ....progression kill or it doesnt count.

[Random Guy 2]: HA! Teckibot of Praudmooore tanked the progression kill of Illidan. *hyperlink*

[Awake]: quoted from their own guild website front page; "Now, obviously this wasn't the ideal way of doing it, but we managed to make the kill happen anyway". See? Even that paladin's guild knew it wasn't the best option.

[Random Guy 3]: I like paladin tanks. This one time I did a pug heroic mech with a paladin tank and we did it no wipes or anything. seemed to go ok.

[Awake]: Pug heroic mech!!! Holy mother! You're absolutely right! On behalf of the entire Nihilum guild, I apologise.
lol.
Paladin tanks will never be viable in real end-game because they cant get uncrushable because paladins dont have any blocking ability.

[Random Guy 4]: Ur dumb, Paladins are uncrushable with 490 defense.

[Awake]: banned.

[Kungen]: what's uncrushable?
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Postby Worldie » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:01 pm

Rofl
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby Teckbot » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:18 pm

Joanadark wrote:Nihilum Forums:


[Random Guy]: Would you guys ever use a Paladin main tank?

[Awake]: You're obviously trolling. You know what our reply will be and you're just setting it up for yet ANOTHER "Tankadin r SO GUD" thread. Die in a fire.

[Random Guy]: You're dumb, some girl named Lore tanked Illidan without even wearing armor and with rez sickness.

[Awake]: ....progression kill or it doesnt count.

[Random Guy 2]: HA! Teckibot of Praudmooore tanked the progression kill of Illidan. *hyperlink*

[Awake]: quoted from their own guild website front page; "Now, obviously this wasn't the ideal way of doing it, but we managed to make the kill happen anyway". See? Even that paladin's guild knew it wasn't the best option.

[Random Guy 3]: I like paladin tanks. This one time I did a pug heroic mech with a paladin tank and we did it no wipes or anything. seemed to go ok.

[Awake]: Pug heroic mech!!! Holy mother! You're absolutely right! On behalf of the entire Nihilum guild, I apologise.
lol.
Paladin tanks will never be viable in real end-game because they cant get uncrushable because paladins dont have any blocking ability.

[Random Guy 4]: Ur dumb, Paladins are uncrushable with 490 defense.

[Awake]: banned.

[Kungen]: what's uncrushable?


This made my day.

But your synopsis of what Awake said does have truth - it wasn't ideal, and that's why I said the Illidan fight hightlights the flaws in our class. In a fight against at dual-wielding demon, Paladin tanks -should- be ideal.
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Postby targeros » Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:58 pm

Aetherial wrote:Chalk up another progression Illidan kill with a paladin MT :D

Image


paying good money to the person that can tell me how to make my screen look like this!

so you feel my pain, my ui currently looks like this:

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Image
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Postby Atreidies » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:16 am

Mother of God Targ, WTF! And to think I healed you tonight while you used... that... I feel so dirty now.
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Postby targeros » Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:05 am

i got a couple smaller mods when BC came out, before i used pretty much this same UI for 40 mans, except with a couple more things in the middle of my screen... i had to basically follow the feet of other healers during fights, i don't know what pre-bc bosses look like at all haha
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Postby Aetherial » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:35 am

I assure you that I tanked in relatively crummy gear compared to you and probably 90% of the warriors that MT'ed Illidan for progression kills. For my guild at least, they considered a paladin MT to be a superior option when compared to a warrior for two primary reasons: 1) the ability to stack avoidance without sacrificing threat (at least to the degree of a warrior) and 2) because of the increased TPS and mitigation by not having to "save" Shield Block. The added threat from Exorcism (as well as the additional ease with scooping him up on transitions) was just the icing on the cake. It must have worked for us, because not only did I not eat Shears (granted, that was once I figured out how to eliminate the latency gap problem for this fight at least), but we killed him with more than 4 minutes remaining on the Enrage on our progression kill. In comparison, the other guild on our server did their progression kill with a warrior MT in 4/5 T6, did have to deal with Shears, and killed him with about 15 seconds remaining on the enrage timer. I can't speak for their transitions, but we all know that we as paladins excel at snap aggro compared to warriors... so it's safe to assume that those transitions weren't as snappy either.

Can this fight be tanked by warriors? Sure, it can. However, I think that the argument that warriors are the best MT's for this fight be it in farm or progression is no longer valid. So many fights are not MT'ed by paladins in progression only because guilds tend to gear their warriors primarily and let paladins pick up the scraps left behind, and with our Tier 6 loot group being awful (you don't want to know how many priests and warlocks are in my guild), it's harder to pick up Tier pieces as well. In addition, many guilds are reluctant to let a paladin obtain the experience of MT'ing bosses, because warriors have been the staple tank for so long. That being said, especially at this level of content, tankadins tend to be more informed on fight mechanics, theorycrafting, what have you... because we have to be. We're still fighting for every second of MT time that we can get, whereas warriors are able to just stroll in and tank things purely based on their class rather than on skill and raiding knowledge.

Any tank that is inexperienced or undergeared will have problems with progression (and some farm) content, regardless of class. Warrior and paladin tanks are at the point in development now where they are nearly equal in terms of MT viability, and now it is coming down to the player behind the character, rather than just blindly saying "oh, let's have the warrior do it." Yes, there are some fights where it's best for us to let the warriors tank, and there are fights for which we are better suited than the warriors, and of course, there are fights where it's a toss-up. However, so many fights are dubbed "tankadin unfriendly" with very little data to support that decision. I remember Eek and Joanadark going at it about Essence of Anger for pages on end... and look, it's actually quite tankadin FRIENDLY. I know my guild isn't planning on using a warrior on that fight anytime soon if they can avoid it.

Let us not forget that Nihilum and similar guilds were pushing content while most tankadins were still figuring out that they COULD tank. Let us not forget that warriors were primed and polished as a tanking class while Blizzard was still working out our mechanics in the basement somewhere. Do you think Nihilum would have cleared Hyjal faster if they'd known what a tankadin could do?

It is not a question of warriors being the best for progression, it is a matter of availability. Tankadins are the rarest class/spec combo in the game right now, and endgame tankadins rarer even still. Not all guilds have the luxury of being able to field a fully-geared, experienced tankadin, but that does NOT mean that we are not as viable, or even more so, than a warrior.

Raiding guilds have moved away from just having one MT and instead have to work as a MT team... and this is a paradigm shift not only for us and the warriors, but all raiding players. For those of us raiding T6 content, it's easy to forget that most of the raiding community is blithely ignorant of the potential of a skilled tankadin in action. I'm not talking about a Karazhan offtank, or a holy paladin that respecs and tosses on tank gear once a week for Hyjal. The number of MT tankadins is still very small, and as a result, it's easy to maintain that "oh, warriors are superior" attitude... because by nature, you're going to trust what you have experience with over what you don't.

Some of us have been around long enough to remember when you could "only tank Patchwerk with Druids"... and I don't know about you guys, but back in those days I was a warrior MT and we didn't use a single damn druid on that fight. We are in a similar situation right now as warriors were when Patchwerk was progression content. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot by saying "oh, we can't do this" without enough data, shall we?
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