Remove Advertisements

Mother and Illidan

Naj'entus, Supremus, Akama, Gorefiend, Gurtogg Bloodboil, RoS, Sharaz, Council, Illidan

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis, fiend

Postby ShaiHulud » Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:27 am

For all the guys who are just recently plowing the nerfed content it isn't as if it was "never" nerfed. Un-nerfed illidan was a 15-20 minute fight for guilds on their first attempts. Thats 15-20 minutes of people having to pay attention or it could potentially be a wipe. My guild farmed Illidan for 3 months pre nerf never downing anything in Sunwell due to attendance. Post nerf we killed Kalec and 2-shot Brutallus. We'd never gotten any good attempts on Kalec and never saw Brut at all before we killed him. Killing brut we had a dead hunter(MD was bugged and was not directing threat to the targeted MD'd player) and a dead MS warrior(pulled aggro at 97%) and still managed to kill him in 4 minutes. That just shows you how easy this nerfed content is.
Image
^The new WoTLK Main
Image
^Old TBC main
ShaiHulud
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:45 am

Postby Aleph » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:23 am

Worldie wrote:
Aleph wrote:
Petrus wrote:Are the Flames' attacks Elemental? I know the Flames themselves are classified as Demons, which is why I ask. (P.S. that means use exorcism!)

Wait what? Is this new in 3.0 or has it always been the case? I always assumed they were elementals and never checked!

I'm pretty sure they were Demon even before 2.3

Wow ok. That's some epic fail on my part then.
Aleph
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 8:08 pm

Postby Dendrah » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:43 pm

ShaiHulud wrote:For all the guys who are just recently plowing the nerfed content it isn't as if it was "never" nerfed. Un-nerfed illidan was a 15-20 minute fight for guilds on their first attempts. Thats 15-20 minutes of people having to pay attention or it could potentially be a wipe. My guild farmed Illidan for 3 months pre nerf never downing anything in Sunwell due to attendance. Post nerf we killed Kalec and 2-shot Brutallus. We'd never gotten any good attempts on Kalec and never saw Brut at all before we killed him. Killing brut we had a dead hunter(MD was bugged and was not directing threat to the targeted MD'd player) and a dead MS warrior(pulled aggro at 97%) and still managed to kill him in 4 minutes. That just shows you how easy this nerfed content is.


If you were farming BT for 3 months then your players will all have been 4T6. My guilds players are S2, Kara, heroic epix and badge gear. You are where you should be. We are 1 tier up. It still is nerved as hell for the easier fights like Teron and Akhama but for the thouger fights it will still be progression raiding.
Image
Dendrah
 
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:07 pm

Postby samsara » Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:25 am

Dendrah wrote:If you were farming BT for 3 months then your players will all have been 4T6. My guilds players are S2, Kara, heroic epix and badge gear. You are where you should be. We are 1 tier up. It still is nerved as hell for the easier fights like Teron and Akhama but for the thouger fights it will still be progression raiding.


I think what he was trying to say is that even with kara/T4/T5 gear ( Badgegear is equal to T6) illidan is far away from the funny 15-20min fight it was. Maybe you can't beat him in 5 minutes as full t6 content guilds but you won't take longer then 10 minutes.

Have you killed vashj? How long and how many tries did to need to take her down? (we downed her at a time where you had to kill all bosses to get to her) What was your feeling killing her compared to killing her now? Right! You probably feel its a joke and will be probably a bit disapointed that an encounter where you investet quite a lot of time is now as hard as some heroic boss.

but for the topic again: Just follow the normal tactik. Take care not to run into an eyebeam (if there will be one) and kill the ghosts fast. This fight isn't that hard with some training, if you manage to kill him once you will first or 2nd shot him everytime.

good luck
Image
samsara
 
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 6:17 am

Postby Worldie » Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:44 am

samsara wrote:Have you killed vashj? How long and how many tries did to need to take her down? (we downed her at a time where you had to kill all bosses to get to her) What was your feeling killing her compared to killing her now? Right! You probably feel its a joke and will be probably a bit disapointed that an encounter where you investet quite a lot of time is now as hard as some heroic boss.

Pre 3.0, Vashj/Kael could take up to 1 month to be learned and killed, while Illidan anyway wouldn't ever take more than 2-3 days.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13303
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Postby Dendrah » Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:30 am

Trust me guys. I learned every boss up and including Illidan the hard way. I'm just happy that with my new guild on my new tankadin I'll be able to see the same places as I saw on my hunter.

This new guild has maybe 10 people who know what raidinhg is about. All the others are new to decent raiding. Karazhan was hard to them. Now Illidan will prove to be a real challenge, just to get everyone in the correct groups in P2 will be hard.

You try forging a group of players who never saw Vanilla raids and never got past Kara and a few ZA's. Then go raid BT. I tell you... It is pure progression to these guys.

To me it all looks like a joke. Bloodboil on 10% and 8 people alive? Ooh we have a tank and 2 healers so keep nuking and forget about the rotation.
Image
Dendrah
 
Posts: 398
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:07 pm

Postby Elsie » Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:24 am

Worldie wrote:
samsara wrote:Have you killed vashj? How long and how many tries did to need to take her down? (we downed her at a time where you had to kill all bosses to get to her) What was your feeling killing her compared to killing her now? Right! You probably feel its a joke and will be probably a bit disapointed that an encounter where you investet quite a lot of time is now as hard as some heroic boss.

Pre 3.0, Vashj/Kael could take up to 1 month to be learned and killed, while Illidan anyway wouldn't ever take more than 2-3 days.

QFT, vashj and Kael'thas, particularly vashj, took so much more to down that most of BT was viewed as free loot. Those two fights could break guilds that took over 1 month to finish them.
User avatar
Elsie
 
Posts: 3819
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:12 pm

Postby ShaiHulud » Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:26 am

The point is that because you're in Kara/ZA/Badge gear you SHOULDN'T be able to kill illidan as fast as you do. It took my guild 3 months of BT to even get to illidan. Now guilds are steam rolling through in crap gear to get free loot off illidan. My guild was also a guild who killed Kael/Vashj pre 2.4 and it took a good 2-3 resets just to get the fight learned. Now you can probabaly go in and 1 or 2 shot Illidan without even seeing the fight because of how easy he is. There is no more coordination. One person even said that you can now just stand in the the Blaze/blue flame combo and have healers heal through it. Before if you ever thought about doing that your healers would need to spam max ranks and even then you still may have died. Just don't come into this topic thinking that because you did it with a lower gear level that its a hard fight cause it isn't.
Image
^The new WoTLK Main
Image
^Old TBC main
ShaiHulud
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:45 am

Postby 2ndNin » Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:14 am

ShaiHulud wrote:The point is that because you're in Kara/ZA/Badge gear you SHOULDN'T be able to kill illidan as fast as you do. It took my guild 3 months of BT to even get to illidan. Now guilds are steam rolling through in crap gear to get free loot off illidan. My guild was also a guild who killed Kael/Vashj pre 2.4 and it took a good 2-3 resets just to get the fight learned. Now you can probabaly go in and 1 or 2 shot Illidan without even seeing the fight because of how easy he is. There is no more coordination. One person even said that you can now just stand in the the Blaze/blue flame combo and have healers heal through it. Before if you ever thought about doing that your healers would need to spam max ranks and even then you still may have died. Just don't come into this topic thinking that because you did it with a lower gear level that its a hard fight cause it isn't.


I killed Kael and Vashj 2.4, and I saw them prior to that, the guild I did them with didn't have a problem with either of them (well we did but it wasn't tactics, was finding people that could not stand in the fire), the tactics for those fights played nicely into the mentality of the guild of small group tactics, they were hard in that they required a lot of co-ordination however they didn't push damage or healing (they probably pushed dps) to the extent that something like Brutallus did.

Taking the view that coming into 3.0.2 and seeing a fight as easy is perhaps a bad idea, however the majority of bosses are / were not hard in the first place if you had players that could look, watch and learn from the fights. Take lurker, I have seen T5-6 wipes on him (9 of them in one night as well) because people couldn't move out of the spout, I also saw Vashj basically one shotted (silly hunter forgot to MD) because the people who turned up knew what they were doing.

Bloodboil and Teron were hard for many guild, people struggled on them, we pushed 14 ghosts on Teron (9 people left standing at the end) on one attempt and downed him, sure we were slow but 14 people got their act together and did him, Bloodboil similarly we took 1 night to learn him, and we should have cleared him 4 wipes earlier but one of the mages that couldn't take the rage kept getting it. Progression is not often related to the difficulty of the content, by the time you have seen Hydross you have seen 95% of the mechanics in the game that will get thrown against you. Progression is about finding 24 other people who can learn not to stand in fires, and fill their roles without micro management.

You say it took you months to reach Illidan (and I have no idea which patch you did it in), however I know that one of the guilds I was in pushed 4/9 and 4/5 in one week, bloodboil the next, and kindof blew up on RoS due to trying to make a silly tactic work with people that didn't learn not to stand in the fire. Taking the core of the raid group (10-15 people) they could easily have pushed 8/9, 9/9 in a week or two because the players were good. The nerfs in 3.0.2 make it easy for T6 geared people to down him, but its still possible for people to mess up, 2.4 was the free for all, 3.0.2 is the cleanup letting people see the content before its basically gone, sure its easy for someone that has learned all of this stuff, but its not so easy for people that never actually got to experience the game due to friendships or suchlike.
[url=http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lightbringer&n=elyria]Armoury Link
[/url]
Image
2ndNin
 
Posts: 617
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:53 am
Location: EU-Silvermoon

Postby Elsie » Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:52 am

ShaiHulud wrote:The point is that because you're in Kara/ZA/Badge gear you SHOULDN'T be able to kill illidan as fast as you do. It took my guild 3 months of BT to even get to illidan. Now guilds are steam rolling through in crap gear to get free loot off illidan. My guild was also a guild who killed Kael/Vashj pre 2.4 and it took a good 2-3 resets just to get the fight learned. Now you can probabaly go in and 1 or 2 shot Illidan without even seeing the fight because of how easy he is. There is no more coordination. One person even said that you can now just stand in the the Blaze/blue flame combo and have healers heal through it. Before if you ever thought about doing that your healers would need to spam max ranks and even then you still may have died. Just don't come into this topic thinking that because you did it with a lower gear level that its a hard fight cause it isn't.

This is the wrong way to look at it. You put in the blood and tears, and enjoyed the content the way it was before months before most people set foot in hyjal. That's what you have gained. This is how it is now, and with the expansion in under a month - mere weeks away - there is no harm in talking about how it is now. There is no harm in getting items that are, by the large part, worthless past the opening zone.
get to smile and see how excited they are when they retell him popping out the sunwell. About ... 2 people understand what I mean when I talk about Kel'thuzzad and Heigan and Sapphiron.

People know it was harder, and I kind of miss that challenge right now. But I'm happy my friends get to see what I saw, and I get to help them. You could've stood in the blue crap anyway with full t6. Especially after 2.3. It's also nice to tell them, now that they can relate, what the fight was like. You get a lot of "Whoa."
User avatar
Elsie
 
Posts: 3819
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:12 pm

Postby ShaiHulud » Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:04 am

Meh I spent hundreds of gold for the gear I got as well as countless raid hours to learn fights the way they were supposed to be done. Farmed bosses for months looking for certain drops that never managed to drop just to get a little more edge to help defeat the next hard encounter. Now I can bring a pug of t4/badge geared people in and steam roll the place. It's great people get to see the content but when someone calls it progression still it gets to me a little thinking how much time and effort I put into it just to have a scrub guild who couldn't kill vashj/kael or one that got stuck on gorefiend because of constructs can now walk through with Blizzard holding their hand.
Image
^The new WoTLK Main
Image
^Old TBC main
ShaiHulud
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:45 am

Postby dmok » Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:19 am

ShaiHulud wrote:Meh I spent hundreds of gold for the gear I got as well as countless raid hours to learn fights the way they were supposed to be done. Farmed bosses for months looking for certain drops that never managed to drop just to get a little more edge to help defeat the next hard encounter. Now I can bring a pug of t4/badge geared people in and steam roll the place. It's great people get to see the content but when someone calls it progression still it gets to me a little thinking how much time and effort I put into it just to have a scrub guild who couldn't kill vashj/kael or one that got stuck on gorefiend because of constructs can now walk through with Blizzard holding their hand.

QQ.

You learned the fights the way they were supposed to be done, you saw the fights done the way they were supposed to be done, and you conquered the challenge. There isn't much of a challenge left. You can proudly say you have dealt with Illidan's shear, and had to actually worry about constructs. You met the challenge, and you overcame it.

People now don't have much of a challenge in BT. For what my guild has done in there so far, I'm bored. It feels easy. I *wish* we had the time to get here when it was still hard. I want the challenge. Regardless, I am happy I at least get to see a semblance of the fight. the gear at this point doesn't really matter. Blizzard spent time making all this stuff, they want to see as many people as possible to get a chance to see it.

You did it when it was hard. Congratulations. But because you did it when it was hard doesn't mean other people don't want to see it too. It would be like complaining because you owned one of the first <enter expensive electronic device here> when they first came out, and that nobody else should have one until they have also earned thousands and thousands of dollars to own one just like you had to.
There ain't no pirate like a Mead Hall Pirate

Mead Hall Pirates - The Scryers US
Dmor: 80 Prot Paladin | Dmok: 80 MM Hunter | Dmos: 80 Disc Priest | Dmoz: 80 Unholy DK
dmok
 
Posts: 972
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:49 am
Location: The Scryers

Postby ShaiHulud » Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:04 pm

My posts were directed to those saying it was still a challenge because they had a lower ilevel. I could careless about the nerfs just people coming in here acting like killing Illidan Post 3.0 is some kind of achievement.
Image
^The new WoTLK Main
Image
^Old TBC main
ShaiHulud
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:45 am

Postby Worldie » Sat Oct 25, 2008 1:35 am

ShaiHulud wrote:My posts were directed to those saying it was still a challenge because they had a lower ilevel. I could careless about the nerfs just people coming in here acting like killing Illidan Post 3.0 is some kind of achievement.

If you barely could kill Illidan pre 3.0, now your challenge is killing KJ.

As someone said above, if you still want some challenge, go up a tier. People stuck in SSC/TK now can clear BT; people who did just clear BT can now attempt to clear Sunwell.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13303
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Postby inthedrops » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:02 am

The challenge is lessened and that's something we can all agree on. But it's pointless trying to measure how much it was lessened because the impact of the changes will affect some guilds more than others.

Saying "it's easy, don't worry" provides no value for those that are asking for actual advice. Those that find it easy may have forgotten about some of the raid wiping things they learned and which still play a role. But the people who are asking for the advice need to understand that from the perspectives of many people the fights have become easy enough that it's not as important as it once was to learn the things you're asking about.

My advice for anyone asking for help is to just go in there and do it. THEN you'll know what's still hard and what you need help with.
inthedrops
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 1281
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:19 am

PreviousNext

Return to Black Temple

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


Remove Advertisements

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest