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P3 Kael'thas

A'lar, Void Reaver, Solarian, Kael'thas

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P3 Kael'thas

Postby Aleriya » Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:33 pm

My guild has been working on Kael for about 6 weeks now and we can't get past P3. Typically we'll have 2-3 weapons up when P3 starts, and by the time P4 starts we've got the axe still up and 3 advisors.

Clearly we need more dps . . . but we don't have a large enough pool of raiders to stack AE. Most of our raiders are 3/5 T5 but some are less geared. Is it possible to kill Kael without an "ideal" raid?

Raid makeup usually looks something like this:
2 Prot warriors
2 Prot paladins (one as 20/41/0 spec and one as a real tanking spec >.>)
1 Feral druid (tank, but we make him dps on this fight)
7 healers (3 paladins, 1 druid, 1 shaman, 2 priests)
3 Mages
1 Warlock
1 Shadow Priest
1 Ele shaman
1 Enh shaman
3 Rogues
1 dps warrior
2 Hunters
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Postby Bryne » Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:11 pm

If you're having DPS problems, the first thing I'd do is lose a prot warrior and a prot paladin. Seriously, who brings two prot paladins to a learning fight, especially one with a spec like that?
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Postby Aleriya » Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:05 pm

We usually run TK/SSC with five tanks . . . sometimes 6 >.> It took some arm twisting to convince the feral druid to dps so that we only have 4 tanks. Raid leader insists on having 2 prot warriors at all times, one of the prot paladins is our FR/phoenix tank and the other has 2k more hp than any of the other tanks (me >.>)

I would like to avoid stepping out for this fight . . . if it's not possible to kill Kael with our current setup I'll do what I have to do tho >_<
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Postby Mortehl » Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:15 pm

When killing the weapons, have your warlock, spriest, and normal priests switch early. At 20% of each weapon, warlocks, shadow priests, and priests should all switch to the next weapon, leaving trailing dots on the prior one. The DoTs and physical DPS will finish the target off and you'll be increasing your raid DPS substantially.
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Postby Bryne » Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:35 pm

Having 5 tanks on this fight is gimping your DPS significantly, and at your gear and experience level you don't really have the room to be doing that and still be successful.

Three tanks (MT, prot/feral OT, and a prot paladin) is sufficient for Kael (and anything in TK). You should pick up two DPSers to replace them, as that will increase your killing speed on weapons and advisors pretty significantly. Having weapons still up in P4 and more than 1 (maybe 2 if one is on the way out) advisors up is just going to spell disaster for your learning attempts here.
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Postby Jensaarai » Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:59 pm

What's been said above. Having 5 (or 6, holy shit) tanks is totally stupid and overkill. Drop that mentality now or you're going to have huge dps problems in the future...3 tanks is plenty (prot warrior/prot paladin/feral druid)...most of the time 2 is fine, my feral druid dps's...for the times when we need 4 tanks (karathress, al'ar...) we have another druid respec or my dps warrior tanks (we used to run with 2 ferals until one quit, and we've made due).

But yeah. Drop your two tanks for two aoe (two warlocks would be nice) and you'll see a huge improvement.
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Postby nicolax » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:50 am

Aleriya wrote:My guild has been working on Kael for about 6 weeks now and we can't get past P3. Typically we'll have 2-3 weapons up when P3 starts, and by the time P4 starts we've got the axe still up and 3 advisors.

Clearly we need more dps . . . but we don't have a large enough pool of raiders to stack AE. Most of our raiders are 3/5 T5 but some are less geared. Is it possible to kill Kael without an "ideal" raid?

Raid makeup usually looks something like this:
2 Prot warriors
2 Prot paladins (one as 20/41/0 spec and one as a real tanking spec >.>)
1 Feral druid (tank, but we make him dps on this fight)
7 healers (3 paladins, 1 druid, 1 shaman, 2 priests)
3 Mages
1 Warlock
1 Shadow Priest
1 Ele shaman
1 Enh shaman
3 Rogues
1 dps warrior
2 Hunters


your set-up is completely screwed up. too many tanks. 3 max are needed. 1 prot pala, 1 warrior, 1 druid.
the next problem, not enough aoe. bring more warlocks if you can. Typical raid set-up in my guild is 3 mages, 3 warlocks, always. drop a rogue if you can. I bet it takes you very long to dps capernian, in phase 1 and 3. Bring more ranged dps. Tell warlocks to dot the bow when dpsing the staff/aoeing the mace/shield/dagger/sword.
And dps that axe at the end of phase 2/beginning of phase 3 before taking care of the advisors. It frees a tank/healer. Shield should be the last weapon to be dpsed/killed.

Weapons dps in phase 2 :
- prot pala : mace,shield,dagger
- druid : axe, tanked behind kael'thas
- warrior : sword, tanked on the same spot as mace/shield/dagger
- hunter : bow
- staff : no tank, just nuke

Aleriya wrote:We usually run TK/SSC with five tanks . . . sometimes 6 >.> It took some arm twisting to convince the feral druid to dps so that we only have 4 tanks. Raid leader insists on having 2 prot warriors at all times, one of the prot paladins is our FR/phoenix tank and the other has 2k more hp than any of the other tanks (me >.>)

I would like to avoid stepping out for this fight . . . if it's not possible to kill Kael with our current setup I'll do what I have to do tho >_<


your raid leader is not helping your guild at all by doing that, so i would have a talk with your guild leader if i were you. you are gonna have lots of trouble in black temple if you continue like that (example, bringing more than one prot tank for teron gorefiend learning attempts is a total waste. After that you can maybe bring one or two wasted spots, but certainly not 4 prot tanks at once) or mount hyjal (some boss fights are dps races and raid players will die one after another during the fight for sure (Azgalor...) thus lowering the dps more and more.

Do your guild a favor and tell him to rotate tanks. Best set-up is 1 prot paladin, 1 prot warrior, druids.... well as many as you want :) i like druids, battle raises or dps while not tanking.
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Postby Lieris » Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:46 am

nicolax wrote: Best set-up is 1 prot paladin, 1 prot warrior, druids.... well as many as you want :) i like druids, battle raises or dps while not tanking.


Yep.

I'll echo what everyone else has said, you don't want more than two prot spec people on this fight and 5-6 AOEers. You will be stuck on Kael for some time if you don't do this as P3 with 3 weapons up in P3 and 3 advisors in P4 after 6 weeks of attempts is really poor progress.

Also log WWS of your SSC/TK clears and see which DPSers you can rely on for Kael. Karathress is a good measuring stick for this with melee only slightly inconvenienced by movement. Everyone should be capable of 1000 DPS at a minimum as there is no threat problems and it's a pure 5 minute DPS burn race.
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Postby Nicki » Mon Feb 25, 2008 6:45 pm

killed tonight with 1 prot pala, 2 prot warriors and 1 feral druid.

in p1 i did nothing really i swung my nightfall 3x oh and i tanked telonicus..In p2 I tanked shield, swords, staff other tanks took infinity blades and cosmic infuser with the feral on devastation.

We got everything down before advisors spawned I looted the shield ofc. Tanked telonicus. Went to pick up kael after swing nightfall on sang (i think).

Took kael so we had 2 prot warriors with daggers in the raid, a hunter kited the phoenix's
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Postby Exia » Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:01 am

3 Protect Speced is a maximum. The perfect setup is 1 Prot-Warrior/1Protadin. The third one can be either a Feral or a Prot-Speced warrior. If you want a fourth or a fifth tank, these should be exclusively ferals.

I usually tank in P2 the shield (because of reflective/caster aggro), daggers, healing mace and if the staff is hitting a clothie, i usually taunt it back in our AoE zone.
In P3, the bulwark is not yet down and i hold the shield and Telonicus for a few seconds. I loot the shield, the mace and the dagger (to give it to a Prot-warrior).
In P4, I am on Tanking duty for KT, since I have a large 21.5K - after shout HPpool, FR Aura, the ability to self-heal myself for the sake of the 50% Fire-DR buff and can divine shield out of a full-pyro cycle. And by the way, the Prot warriors are decursing with their dagger (can't wear it), tanking the phoenixs.
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Postby Siiri » Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:07 am

A little bit OT but. Our guild consists of four tanks atm. Two pallas and two druids. Is it a possible combo for kael and later on MH/BT or is it a must to get a warrior? Atm we're 7% on Vashj and I bet some money that she'll be dead after tonights raid.

As RL I'm thinking of bringing 2 pallas and one druid for Kael.

Feedback..
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Postby nicolax » Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:48 am

Siiri wrote:A little bit OT but. Our guild consists of four tanks atm. Two pallas and two druids. Is it a possible combo for kael and later on MH/BT or is it a must to get a warrior? Atm we're 7% on Vashj and I bet some money that she'll be dead after tonights raid.

As RL I'm thinking of bringing 2 pallas and one druid for Kael.

Feedback..


bring many druids :) well, that depends if they like to dps, if they like only tanking that sucks. but combat raises players dying from thaladred in phase 1 is helpful (don't laugh, kael is on farm and we still have players doing that kind of mistakes, "banging my head against the wall" -_-)

put druid/pala on sanguinar/axe/phoenixes.

about warriors, well, we didn't had any active warrior tank for a long time, and it makes no difference in progression speed so far. sanguinar is easily tankable by all kind of tanks, on mount hyjal, having a warrior spell-reflecting shadowbolts from necromancers can help but is not necessary at all if your healers are good.
if your tanks are active (you could use one more druid to always have enough tanks) no need to get a warrior. the only mandatory fight you need one (can be a dps warrior respeccing for the fight) is reliquary of souls phase 2.
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Postby Daine » Tue Feb 26, 2008 9:10 am

Drop some tanks as has been said, prot paladin is awesome for weapons and phoenixes. Are you popping Heroisms and focus-firing as soon as the staff goes down, and if you don't have AoE try and trail DoTs as said. Personally we run with 3 tanks and 6 healers, so by the time we get into Phase 3 we only have the shield left up on 40% ish. Getting into Phase 3 with barely any weapons up is key, because the sooner they're equipped the less problems you'll have.

In Phase 3 we have the melee on Telonicus first with one survival hunter for the bow debuff, and one melee on Thaladred to apply the +magic dagger debuff. Any and all synergy you can get through Phase 2+3 to increase DPS should be exploited as much as you can - once you're into Phase 4 comfortably, it's pretty much a kill.
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Postby valadicio » Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:42 am

Sounds like a lack of aoe / to many prot tanks. We go with myself, prot warr and two feral druids who dps most the fight and on weapons phase one tanks axe well one tanks staff.
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Postby Dehn » Wed Feb 27, 2008 4:16 am

We had our first "real" night on Kael yesterday, and after a few learning of positioning, we had no problems getting into phase3 with only Axe left at <20%.

My team is not THAT different from yours, except for a few differences.

2 Prot warriors
1 Prot Pala
1 feral druid
=> 4 tanks (or 3 + 1 dps)

1 Resto Shaman
2 Resto Druids
2 Holy Paladins
2 Holy priests
=> 7 healers

3 Warlocks (1 destroy, 2 aff)
3 Hunters (2bm, 1 survival)
1 Shadow Priest
3 Mages (2 arcane, 1 fire)
=> 10 ranged dps.

1 retri paladin
1 enhance shaman
1 rogue
1 fury warrior
=> 4 melee dps (in group with the feral)

I usually stack the s-priest with the mages so they can go all out more when needed and not worry about mana. The melee group is stacked together nicely, and have nice synergy.

I put all ranged at bow, with 1 hunter tanking it facing it away.
Melee + prot warrior on the cosmic infuser, and then when it is dead goes on the shield.
1 prot warrior positions the axe away a little bit, so no whirlwinds on group, but still getting AoE.
After bow is dead, the ranged goes AoE. Here the difference really is big. 3+ Warlocks with Seed of Corruption makes an enormous difference in how quickly grouped trash dies.
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