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Single Tank Void Reaver?

A'lar, Void Reaver, Solarian, Kael'thas

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby Rasmfrackn » Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:26 pm

fuzzygeek wrote:
Rasmfrackn wrote:lots of words


Wow, quite an analysis!

We went in again last night -- I got a pair of Wrynn's and stuffed it full of 8 dodge gems, and wore the Kz Dodge boots as well. So I'm rolling around 28% dodge and around 650 SD.

The GL is calling for misdirects on me before we start the fight and I say, "last week may have been a fluke; misdirect the 2ndary tank plx."

He says, "nah we should be fine."

...

There were very few people alive at the end of last night's kill. ><

(It was kind of a crappy night all around -- lots of people dead on Al'ar; we were down to one tank who had popped Shield wall, with most of the DPS dead, and Al'ar at 3% and healers entirely OOM. So I popped wings and a destro pot and killed one of the adds that I'd been tanking for the last five minutes. I died in the resulting blast, but so did Al'ar.)

(Stories are fun)

(So are parenthesis)


(I agree)

(I also like making spreadsheets)

There's just enough nuance in the threat reduction to make tanking VR for 100% to just not be a dependable thing, unfortunately. Eating knockaways early isn't so bad, but eating them late can really make your threat ceiling go back *down* no matter how hard you try. I always forget to re-salv our dps warrior until I see him in the middle of the tanks at about 50%... then I salv him, but I assume by that point he can't do much but autoattack. /bad paladin

Grats on alar though. :) I really want to get back there. We did back-to-back VR+Solarian 1shots on monday and tuesday, so we should have time this week assuming our healers show up... O.o

-- The thing about boosting your spelldamage is this... if you have 800 TPS, your "worst case" threat ceiling is literally 70k threat, dropping to 52k after knockaways. If you have 1200 tps, that turns in to 105k top and 78k bottom. 2000 tps is 170k top and 130k bottom.

170k would probably be enough to hold him 100%, especially since you will get some lucky avoids in there, but really can any of us reliably sustain 2k tps for a 4.5M hp boss? Probably not, especially now that the rolling SoV thing is nerfed. :)
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Postby bubblecannon » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:43 pm

(Disclaimer: this assumes the 0.25 threat maths being discussed here. If that is incorrect then treat this as a maths exercise only)

Hmm, this got me interested to do the maths. Here's the spreadsheet assuming 0 avoided knockbacks for 1500 TPS sustained:


K=knockback number
Thret=Total Threat on Target (in thousands)
TPS=Avg Total TPS on target up til this point
ThrInc=increase in total threat on target since last knockback (NOT IN THOUSANDS)
RelTPS=rel TPS from just before last knockback to just before this one

K |Thret|TPS |ThrInc|RelTPS
01|0045K|1500|45000|1500
02|0079K|1312|33750|0843
03|1041K|1156|25312|0632
04|1234K|1025|18984|0474
05|1373K|0915|10678|0355
06|1479K|0822|08009|0266
...
10|1699K|0674|03378|0112
...
15|1775K|0394|01425|0026
...
20|1794K|0299|00190|0011


Now, assuming 15 DPS'ers, VR on 4.75M HP then each DPS must average 527 DPS to beat the timer.

Converting that to TPS for most classes is say 0.9*0.7 = 332 TPS.

Summary
Wthout threat wiping classes or using tranquil air totems, DPS are pretty much living right on the edge to beat the enrage timer -IF- the pally gets hit by every knockback.

Also note that towards the end of the fight, the tank's effective TPS tends to zero.

(this is because theoretically the max overall threat a tank can generate on this fight is 4 times his threat in the first 30 seconds)

(ie. Threat= SUM (k*(0.75^n) which has an asymptote at 4*k)

P.S. For the number crunchers, here are the row formulae:
Thret = (previousThreat*0.75)+1500 [or whatever TPS you want to calc]
AvgTPS = (total threat / elapsed time)
ThrInc = threat gen in last 30 secs - total threat just after last knockback (gross)
RelTPS = net threat gen in last 30 secs divided by 30 secs (TPS)
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Postby Antharas » Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:04 am

I tanked him for the first time ever tonight, and i think solo tanking is a very big possibility.

I have 250 spell damage, and i tanked him to 31% hp w/o losing agro, one of the 3 off tanks picked it up for 9%, and then at 22% i got it back and took him all the way to 0. now, 250 spell dam is pretty pittiful, when i get stoic guardian, t4 or t5 shoulders, and gladiaters gavel, i will gain like 150-160 spell damage, if its t4 shoulders, more damage from the threat bonus. and im also gonna get the SoR libram from badges after the chest.

if i can hold him to 31% w/ 250 spell dam, i think w/ 400+ it would be very possible. to make it even more likly i could use the 80 holy damage pot (since he hits for jack shit). close to 500 spelldam would make it pretty easy to hold for the whole time i think...

again, only downed him once, so maybe i just got a buncha lucky dodges on the knockback or something, dunno. but he seemed like a push over...

i was using HS, SoR, Judge of SoR, Conc, Avenger Shield, and wings every single time they were up. I think there were 2 hunters using misdirect everytime it was up, not sure about the CD on that, and that wouldnt add all that much threat i dont think.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:25 am

Antharas wrote:if i can hold him to 31% w/ 250 spell dam, i think w/ 400+ it would be very possible. to make it even more likly i could use the 80 holy damage pot (since he hits for jack shit). close to 500 spelldam would make it pretty easy to hold for the whole time i think...


It's also a function of your raid's DPS. We have many people who do over 1k DPS sustained on this boss, so even though I'm rolling with around 600 SD, they're still riding the envelope.

I should note that my DPS makes no effort whatsoever to throttle their threat. They think it's my job to stay above them, and their job to kill the thing as fast as possible. Whether or not this is an intelligent approach is another discussion ...

Ideally it takes us around 5 minutes to kill him, which means less time for fewer knockbacks. If our DPS was still low enough that it took us almost the entire enrage timer to down him, then it'd be easier to stay above the DPS threat, but take more knockbacks, etc.

I've been playing with gearsets to solotank VR for a while now, just for shits and giggles. We're likely going to stop doing TK this next week, so I'm glad I managed to do it once before we moved on :)
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Postby Antharas » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:24 pm

1000 dps on all ur dps would make it alot harder i think. took us 8-9 minutes i believe, id say our average dps was only like 750-850 tho
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Postby Notapearing » Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:56 am

I raid lead, but usually heal... last wed i decided to tank and only lost agro from 96% - 95%, then later in the fight from 21% to 12%... only had 2 hunters in the raid, and they were using thier MD on the prot warrior to keep him in second above the dps. Not really that hard to do when you down him in 7 minutes or so. All luck with the knockback timings and dodge/parry's at the end of the day.
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Postby Aleriya » Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:23 pm

A druid in our guild tanked VR solo to 17%. He has amazingly high dodge tho and probably avoided most of the knockbacks. I've never been able to tank VR for more than about 50-60% but I also start as an OT and don't get misdirects. Competing with a druid who puts out 1200 TPS also makes that difficult ;) Maybe someday when he's not there I'll see how low I can go >.>
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Postby Strom » Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:57 am

We have him on farm but I was the first tank in out of 3 tanks and I held him from 100% to 22%. I regained agro again at 10% until he died. So I held him all but 12% of his life. So its definately possible, but like others said it requires some luck avoiding some of the knockbacks. I also had a little over 700 SD on the fight.
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Postby mazater » Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:45 am

PsiVen wrote:Not impossible at all, you just have to parry every knockback :)

What he said.(Can also be dodged, our druid dodged it 4 times in a row :) )
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Postby TheHonage » Thu Feb 07, 2008 11:14 am

15k armor and 18k hp raid buffed is enough for VR??? Even though ive got a blue or 2 (kara gear) -- but ive got GREAT threat.
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Postby Kellann » Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:37 pm

15/15 (post buffs) is enough. Seriously, it's a threat fight, not a durability fight.
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Postby TheHonage » Thu Feb 07, 2008 3:45 pm

wow, that shocks me seeing as i had 17/16.5 first prince kill
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Postby Kellann » Thu Feb 07, 2008 4:53 pm

Prince is a durability fight, not a threat fight :)

Different mechanics mean different strats/gear. Honestly...ignoring badge gear for the moment (since many of us killed VR pre-2.3), you only have 2 notable upgrades between when you kill prince and when you kill VR - your shield/shoulders. It would be a pretty brutal fight to expect 3-4 tanks (progression level kill) to all be prince/gruul durability geared and also threat geared to the point that they can contribute to the threat capped nature of VR.
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Postby knaughty » Sun Feb 10, 2008 5:43 pm

Just a data point:

For our *FINAL* VR kill (we've keyed everyone for T-6, an T-5 is now off the menu, will wait for 2.4 if we need to recruit unkeyed) earlier this week, I put on my "uncrush/uncrit THREAT!! set" and tanked VR from 100% to 14%, with one MD up front, and the rest going to the warriors.

Kill took 6m 30sec or so.

Had reasonable luck with the knockbacks, but nothing special. One less KB and I'd have had him start to finish.

If I bothered to theory craft a special threat/avoidance set for VR, I'm pretty sure I could build a set that was good for "single tank", especially if I called all MDs to me. EG: DMC: Veangeance + Tome of +290 damage proc was my trinket set... should I use Moroes trinket instead? Boots of Elusion or threat boots? Etc, etc.

After 2.4, when bleeds start working on mechanicals, a bear will be able to tank him 100% to zero relatively easily, I would think. Just stack dodge.
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Postby Korath » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:27 am

Kept him for quite awhile last attempt.

Using mainly tanking set with spell dmg coming from T5 shoulders, Belt of Guardian, T4 Gloves with 20SD, Nightbane SD Sheild, S1 mace with 40SD and then flask of blinding light, Sup Wizard oil, 23SD food & the 290SD pally trinket that drops from Al'ar.

Holy Sheild, Throw Sheild, MD on me, Judge crusader, Desturction Pot, Wings, Cons, Judge rightous, and then spam everything drinking destruction pots when up if I still have aggro, if not then have to pop mana pots.

Destruction Pot + Wings + Trinket Proc = very very nice :D Shame i cant get a ele shammy and Spriest in my group :(
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