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Tank Taking Blame

Attumen, Moroes, Maiden, Opera, Curator, Illhoof, Aran, Netherspite, Chess, Prince, Nightbane

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Tank Taking Blame

Postby agamemnoch » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:10 am

I'm decently geared, 14K health self buffed, 103% avoidance, over 14K armor self buffed and have 265 spell dmg with the Sunward crest (Have Nightbane's shield from when I OT'd the instance and tanked skeletons on him as well as Dawnforged defender).

Recently, a half guild, half pug went through Kara with few deaths (overgeared mage that was blasting mobs off me and got squirshed, and I died on trash once when 3 raid members were AFK and I pulled an arcane robot after curator for fun).

However, we stopped at curator when our main healer was D/C'd along with her heavy DPS husband.

Fast forward to last night, we tried to pick up after curator and do Aran. A good portion of the people were not from the original run. Usually, I pop on some more spell dmg gear, keep seal of the crusader up and judge rightous on him after a few good smacks, consecrate mass rank, holy wrath, chug pots and exorcism him like it's my job.

We wiped 7 times, respawns came, we called the raid cuz it was approaching 1AM. I realize I did not get a lot of flack for it, but I tend to feel responsible when things don't go well. I was MT with another pally OT in less dmg gear. We had 3 healers. This limits our ability to do dmg to Aran. The only other times I have done Aran, he was toast in like 4 or 5 minutes, even with 3 healers. I was OT and apparently, the DPS were better geared.

Now, in somewhat of a pickup raid, I realize you get what you get, but man, some DPSers have no clue. One Huntard, who would NOT get on vent, assured us he's done this before, but moved 5 times during flame wreath on multiple attempts. This, to me, says "I don't have DBM and don't listen to raid chat." How do you vet out DPS for these pickups when you can't always make it to guild runs or your guild is still starting out or saved to other runs?
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Postby Marwan » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:22 am

Well Aran doesn't have an aggro table and can't really be tanked.

So you should probably throw on a healing set (or what healing items you've managed to pick up along the way) and help out. You should be able to keep an elemental busy in heal gear long enough for the dps to blow it up.

But yeah ... people moving during the flame wreath is your biggest problem. that needs to never happen.

You'll get it. Aran is a pretty tough fight when you're just starting out, but if you got Curator you've got the group to do him.
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Postby agamemnoch » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:29 am

See, that's the problem. We had a totally different group than did curator, and on the LAST group, curator enraged, I popped my watch, started spamming him with everything I had.

We already HAD 3 healers, another healer would just have been less overall DPS. I wasn't trying to tank him as much as "OK, he's undead, what can I smack him with that isn't tied down".

This is not a regular group that has decided they're doing kara together all the time. This was more of "I'll go if you need a lock, "I'll go, frost mage" etc. They were either not geared well enough to not be carried or they were using poor rotations on DPS and not bringing it all to the table in the big fights. I am guessing some are fresh outta 5 mans or have been able to slack in raids where their uber T5 hunter/mage helps them burn down whatever and they feel like they can play.

I realize I am not in some major raiding guild and going for a first kill or anything. I like it to be fun, but 20G repairs after 40 min is not fun. Neither is looking at the scenery of kara where you are running through it all the time (Boar's speed; worth every penny).

I mean, I AM geared enough for this, right? (46 badges from 2.4 leggings)
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Postby Truthiness » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:37 am

Your gear has absolutely nothing to do with the Shade fight. Period. Shade has no tank. The fight is all about the competence of the dps, which your group obviously lacked. As was said earlier, slap on a healing set and keep those idiots alive. Other than that, there really isnt much you can do.
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Postby guillex » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:41 am

Or, if you want, slap on spelldamage gear and whack him. Depends on how retarded your dps are.

If people are moving during flame wreath, standing in blizzard, interrupting arcane missles, then heal.
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Postby agamemnoch » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:43 am

I wasn't specifically talking about Aran, just using it as a point. I was just questioning my sanity. I have been in fights where we downed Aran in little time with no problems.

My original questions stand.

Sanity check for kara on me and my gear
How to find good DPS that are outside of my guild to go on runs when I can't make the guild run
Questioning the viability of going 4th healer (especially when the OT does less dmg than I do, essentially making it a 5 DPS fight)


The Shade fight was just an illustration of my frustrations in having DPS that could not get him down. He never got below say 20% or such, but I have been on runs where we one shotted just about everything.
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Postby agamemnoch » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:46 am

Guil,

That was what I was trying to do. I slapped on the chest from 2nd boss in H MgT that's in my heal set. I had on the righteous shoulders from Laj, Rightous legs, sunward crest, PVP S1 mace and went to spell dmg trinkets where I had about 400 spell dmg.
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Postby guillex » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:55 am

Agamemnoch wrote:I wasn't specifically talking about Aran, just using it as a point. I was just questioning my sanity. I have been in fights where we downed Aran in little time with no problems.


And we were just illustrating what could be done for that fight in particular.

Agamemnoch wrote:My original questions stand.

Sanity check for kara on me and my gear


You're fine. I'd change your stam enchant to gloves to either +20sd or +2% threat. There's a long thread about which one should be used when, by Invisusira, somewhere.

Also ... Might want to grind out just a teeeeeeeeeeeeny bit more rep, and grab the revered KoT leggings.

Agamemnoch wrote:How to find good DPS that are outside of my guild to go on runs when I can't make the guild run


Read the wiki/info pages on different classes, see what they should be focusing on with their gear, and then do armorylite/armory searches on each character. Unfortunately, you'll only know half the story with their gear choices.

Agamemnoch wrote:Questioning the viability of going 4th healer (especially when the OT does less dmg than I do, essentially making it a 5 DPS fight)


This is a situational basis. If the healers are doing fine, go dps. If too many people are dying because the healers are being idiots, then you have two problems, and being an OH may or may not be the solution.

Agamemnoch wrote:The Shade fight was just an illustration of my frustrations in having DPS that could not get him down. He never got below say 20% or such, but I have been on runs where we one shotted just about everything.


Again, there are things that you can do to check these things out... Be watching what they're interrupting ... ARE they interrupting?

Always check your dps, because they're a dime-a-dozen. Purples don't necessarily mean good players, and blues don't necessarily mean slackers.
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Postby Holyfuri » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:56 am

If you aren't making mistakes like moving during a flame wreath, then there isn't much else you can do, whether you help dps or heal.

If the idiots won't follow simple directions then they should be /kicked to avoid costing everyone repair bills.

As far as tanking anything else, with the stats you read off in your original post you should be able to tank anything in karazhan.

I think most of the issue comes from you running with different people constantly, some of whom have not done the fights or aren't very experienced at them. The key to consistency in raids is to always go with either the same people, or people that know what to do. Try to build up a good friends list and relations with raiding guilds so that you can borrow people when you need them. Alot of high end raiders still like to do kara to help someone out on an offnight when they are bored.
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Postby agamemnoch » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:58 am

Good points, thanks.

I am actually going to leapfrog the KoT leggings seeing as I have not been squished in anything really with these, and I am only a few weeks away from the 2.4 Inscribed Aldor legs. That's also why I have not bothered to regem my leggings.

I will probably put threat on my gloves in a bit, seeing as I have not really had much aggro issues. I want to make sure my stamina stays strong for the fights where that matters more. When I build my stamina to comfortable levels (probably when I get the 2.3 chest and the badge back).
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Postby uke » Tue Jun 03, 2008 2:19 pm

Agamemnoch wrote:Good points, thanks.

I am actually going to leapfrog the KoT leggings seeing as I have not been squished in anything really with these, and I am only a few weeks away from the 2.4 Inscribed Aldor legs. That's also why I have not bothered to regem my leggings.


Why would you possibly want to do this?

KoT leggings are hands down the BEST pre-raiding legs you can get. The nearest upgrade is the Wyrnn leggings from Curator, which took about a month of Kara runs for me to see drop.

Revered with KoT is just stupid-easy. Do the Durn/BM quests, and about 2-3 normal BM runs gets you there. Plus, you get the tanking head enchant from them as well.

You may have the 2.4 leggings in a few weeks, but why pass up a significant upgrade you can get *now* (not to mention the tanking head enchant)?

Any tank (warrior or pally) who's worth their salt makes it a priority to get revered with KoT, especially given that it's stupid-easy to do.

And why have you 'not been bothered' to get the best gems you can for the legs you got (not epic gems, but at least solid stars for +12 STA each)? Tanking is not for the cheap/lazy. It is THE most gear-intensive role in this game. Otherwise, you're only short-changing yourself and the people who depend on you.
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Postby Kelaan » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:13 pm

The revered helm enchant is something like 2% uncrushability, and more than 1% avoidance, if I remember correctly (edit: I probably don't remmeber correctly ;)) -- not getting that is a travesty. The Timewarden's legs are gravy by comparison. (Even while they are better than nearly anything before 2.4 legs.)
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Re: Tank Taking Blame

Postby Robbert » Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:37 pm

Agamemnoch wrote:One Huntard, who would NOT get on vent, assured us he's done this before, but moved 5 times during flame wreath on multiple attempts. This, to me, says "I don't have DBM and don't listen to raid chat." How do you vet out DPS for these pickups when you can't always make it to guild runs or your guild is still starting out or saved to other runs?


Personally I don't take people for the Aran fight who refuse to jump on vent and at least listen in unless I know from personal experience running with them that they know what to do and how we aprroach that fight. It only takes one person pulling a bonehead move on the Aran fight to wipe the raid. IMO it's not fair to the other 9 people in the raid to suffer bringing that one person.

As a raid leader I refuse to have to type out strategy in raid chat as using vent is far and away easier and quicker.
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Postby Stilgarr » Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:32 am

Agamemnoch wrote:My original questions stand.

Sanity check for kara on me and my gear
How to find good DPS that are outside of my guild to go on runs when I can't make the guild run
Questioning the viability of going 4th healer (especially when the OT does less dmg than I do, essentially making it a 5 DPS fight)





One way to check PUG dps ability is to start the group yourself. Ask for people to whisper you for invites and as they do check the armoury page.

Specifically the Reputation tab. If they have very low rep then they are either an alt (rare but possible) or just plain have not run the place much (so it asks the question why not).

Clothies are easy to figure out, any decent (i.e. proper) Shadow Priest will have the Frozen Shadoweave set, same for 'locks and mages may have their set too.

People like the Hunter on Aran, just kick after he does it twice. Once is fair enough, could be lag, could be an accident. But any more just save yourself the repair bill.
DPS is easy to find, if I yelled in Shatt for 7 dps to Karazhan for a badge run it would take maybe 30 seconds to fill all the spots. Finding a replacement for someone who wont listen is much easier than trying to polish a turd.


Just take stuff nice and steady in there too. No point in getting stressed out with it, especially for random peeps ;)

btw have a SP on the Curator 100% of the time and a 'lock CoD 1 min before an evocation and you'll never see him enrage again ;)
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Postby agamemnoch » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:40 am

Uke,

The reason I have not gotten the better gems for my legs, as well as the KoT legs is because I am not very far at all from getting the 2.4 legs, which are far superior to both the legs I have, the Curator legs (which I lost a roll on a week ago) and the KoT legs. I am not looking for "Pre Raid" legs. I am already hitting 10 mans. The point I was making was that since I am not getting gibbed or whacked to death, the extra effort to get the KoT rep is worth less to me than badges. Plus, the KoT leg nerf makes them less attractive for small gains.

Also, see:
http://www.wowhead.com/?item=29184#comments.

I realize it is not all stam'd up, but I do prefer the extra defense and armor that the felsteel legs give me, at least for now. There have been few fights, at all, yet, that have had me wishing I had more stamina.
I have wished for a heal when the healer is OOM from healing DPS who can't do things right. It sucks when you are one of the last ones standing and your personal DPS about as effectively as a 3yr old with a whiffle ball bat.

I don't do things cheap, for the most part. Sometimes I cannot find mats or enchanters to do things, so I slap something on for the time being.
I am already uncrushable without BoK or any other buffs in 3 of my 4 shields.

Also, since I am already uncrushable, I opted for the SSO head glyph, as it gives me more flexibility with my defense rating as well as 18 more stamina. As such, I have no real incentive at the moment to get revered with the KoT. I am picking up about 8 badges a night, when runs go well on heroics. I plan on doing MgT heroic again tonight for the badges as well as hoping for the commendation to drop.

When I am good for badges, I may jump in when my guild wants to have me tank durnholde or BM because we run through it super easy with me just chain pulling and shouting "Take ranged, give all melee to me."
Last edited by agamemnoch on Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
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