Tank dropping at phase 2 for Prince?

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Tank dropping at phase 2 for Prince?

Postby Lanicus » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:40 pm

So I was finishing up my first full run through Kara last night. My guild has run it many times before and we've almost got it on farm status. We had downed everything but Nightbane and Prince, arguably the hardest encounters in the place. We were taking prince down. We wiped 3 times in a row.

Our main tank (I was OT) is a warrior with 18k hp buffed which really should be more than enough to handle Prince. He's pretty much fully Kara geared. I had on my healing gear to help with phase 2.

We work prince down in Phase 1 without a problem. Phase 2 begins and Prince busts out his axes. Within seconds, it looks like our warrior is 2 shotted. Now we're not talking about some bullshit warrior that doesn't know what he's doing. He's taken down Prince several times before and done it well. Someone from the raid suggests that a rogue pulled threat just long enough for the MT to get enfeeble. Unfortunately the tank's Omen wasn't working at the time (I know - big nono). We do it again and this time the rogue wasn't even attacking when we hit phase 2 - tank is 2 shotted again. Another time - rogue vanishes at the phase transition - tank is down within seconds.

I'm a relative Kara newbie, but no one could figure out what was happening. He was keeping shield block up as much as possible so I don't think it could have been a crushing blow 3 times in a row.

Anyone have any idea what might be happening here?

BTW here is the MT's armory:

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-shee ... e&n=Bllood

As you can see - he's fairly well geared for a Kara run.
Last edited by Lanicus on Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kelaan » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:09 pm

Hmm. I've never tanked it, but I hear lots of stuff about how he can often attack faster than warriors can keep Shield Block up --- thereby making them crushable. Also, if Prince parries anything by the tank, it sets up the parry-gib scenario. Plus, he has that Thrash ability.

Were your healers slacking? I'm genuinely curious. It shouldn't be a threat issue as you can have the tank maintain an almost arbitrary threat lead before phase 2. All I can say is, thank god I'm not a healer for that fight :D
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Postby Cosmoz » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:49 pm

problems with phase 2 usualy has to do with prince parrying the tanks attack, witch results in very fast hitting and major burst damage. (12k in like 1 sec) even tho, with 18k hp, AND warrior-panic-buttons, that should not be a problem.
As a Paladin, with ~19k buffed HP, I just stop attakcing during P2. I should be able to survive those fast hitting burst damages, but why push the healers if i dont have to. Depending on none-self buffs, I have ~450-550 spelldamage, and I could just stop attack for the rest of the fight at P2. got a major threat lead.
Last time i did prince I was even crushable... changed some gear befor the fight, and for some reason I equiped my healing boots and got crushable with 2%. never dropped under 50% HP anyway...

anyway... either your tank was very unlucky with parrys, or (I have not checked the armory) he just lacks a lot of expertise, and gets parried a lot. in that case, its not unlucky, its a gear problem.


edit:
just checked the armory, and indeed, his gear is "good", BUT he lacks expertise. Not to fammiliar with warrior tanks, but dont they tend to have some expertise on tanking gear?
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Postby Ashmadai » Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:05 pm

Warrior probably just didn't have enough expertise and got parried at the same time as a thrash and ate some crushes. There are some fights where a Pally tank is just better, and this is one of them. Now that I'm about 19k HP buffed I don't even worry about stopping attacking during P2 and I have zero chance of dying with 2 good healers.
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Postby Taeron » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:47 am

Like people said, it's usually the burst damage due to Prince parrying attacks. When it happened to me a couple of times a while back I just disengaged during Phase2, popping nothing but Holy Shield, Consecration and Exorcism.

The problem might also be from your melee dps. If they stand on the side and not at the BACK of Prince, he may be parrying their attacks too and giving the tank that much more spike damage.

Good luck.
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Postby mustangofold » Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:28 pm

Our 20+K raid buffed Warrior (tank would stretch it in my opinion :-) ) repeatedly gets 2 - 3 shotted by prince shortly after 60%.
I blame it on him trying instant attacks, not keeping up shield block whenever it cooled down, and eating parried/thrash crushings.

Me, and our 18k Raidbuffed Warrior Tank have no problems on prince if healers are on the ball. (IE: I died because someone thought a hunter pet needed a heal more)
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Postby Whait » Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:32 pm

yep when i tank prince i have 17.5 hp uncrit/uncrush with holy shield up and with three healers (2 for me 1 for raid -damn the infernals ) between spamming HS during phase 2 he never busts thru it so i dont get the spike dmg and when our warr mt tanks him his health bar is up and down the entire fight and hes got 19.7 health ..we did manage to kill him with warr tankin but over teh coarse of the fight he took 13 crushing blows so this fight is blizzs attempt to validate tankadins in prebc players eyes to move away from warrs as mt..but as with most the content warrs will be mt 70% of the time past kara just because of the nature of the fights and warr abilitys so all in all its a tankadin fight
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Postby Caldest » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:09 pm

I have a question about stopping autoattack during phase 2. Without wanting to hit, and therefore unable to judge, has anyone experienced threat issues with only using consecrate/HS/exorcism?

We're currently doing speed Kara badge runs and having reached a comfortable health lvl while remaining uncrushable, I can now tank him (current armory is farming gear; tank gear 518 def/13.8k health/104.xx avoidance/300'ish spell dmg, when unbuffed), and I'm curious if this is something I should try this week, or just stick with my usual cons/HS/judge/exorcism rotation? The dps and healing in the group is very well geared and I don't know that I can hold over them comfortably without the seal, judgment and white dmg threat.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. :D
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:28 pm

You can still judge, just remember to toggle off autoattack after that. Judgment can't be parried, and having your single only attack every 10 seconds parried is really, really unlucky. "You would die by the will of Fate anyway" unlucky.
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Postby Mordinm » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:31 pm

Before you jump to the conclusion that parry is your problem I would take a look at your combat log. Having your auto attack parried is not really a lot of extra damage. Especially when your auto attack is the only thing that can be parried. If you get a rogue with slice and dice up and a 1.3 base speed off hand attacking from the front you are going to have some problems but if dps is where they should be parry is not really an issue on Prince.

Have the tank check is combat log and see if he got parried right before he got killed. Take a look at the time stamps and compare Prince's attack speed right before the tank died with some point earlier and you will be able to tell if it was dps getting parried.

The spike damage on phase 2 is because that's how phase 2 works. He hits like a truck and gets a duel weild miss rate of about 20% when he enters phase 2. Chances are very small that he'll connect with 2 sets of main hand / off hand hits in a row but when all 4 hits connect any tank is going to spike and spike hard over about 2 seconds.
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Postby Minn » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:43 pm

2-shotted, meaning he wasn't healed up between attacks? It sounds to me like the healers need to be a little less reactive. Considering Prince has both Sunder and Thrash you'll want to make sure the tank gets filled up before each attack. The tank can help out too, by using temporary buffs like his Adamantite Figurine, or Last Stand, or a Nightmare Seed, Ironshield Potion, etc. Prince is an example of a fight where the worst-case scenario (Thrash, nothing avoided, plus crushes on warriors/druids) deals well over 50% of the MTs health in a single burst, so heal accordingly if you don't want to run the risk of dying.
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Postby Taeron » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:06 pm

Caldest wrote:I have a question about stopping autoattack during phase 2. Without wanting to hit, and therefore unable to judge, has anyone experienced threat issues with only using consecrate/HS/exorcism?


When I tried the disengage option, I told dps to watch aggro in Phase 2, but popping AW for funsies usually kept me way ahead. And I did judge as well - I hit judge and then ESC right after to stop attacking again.

Put Wizard's Oil on the weapon and drink the Adept's Elixir or whatever it is to max your spell damage if you're seeing aggro problems.
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