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Maiden just killed my raid...maybe for good

Attumen, Moroes, Maiden, Opera, Curator, Illhoof, Aran, Netherspite, Chess, Prince, Nightbane

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Maiden just killed my raid...maybe for good

Postby Evadragon » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:51 pm

So I've been leading my guild towards a slow progression in Kara, hoping to get more members interested as we go. Well maiden fu*ked this up.

So last week we got Moroes and Attumen no problem, a few wipes on trash but easy.

This week we burn through Attumen and Moroes, no wipes. I get worried because we have 3 new dps this week, but other than Attuemen taking slightly longer, no problems.

So we decided to wait on opera and go straight for Maiden....and the wipes begin. We wipe twice because one of the healers was running ahead trying to get to Kienna's Log for the quest, no big deal we all laughed it off.

Then we get to maiden.
So for the first time so far I step down as the tank and let my warrior off-tank take over for this. I explain that everyone needs to spread out to the pillars, no one listens and just take up random places around the room. I tell the resto shaman to keep out grounding totem, he forgets. I explain that my group needs to stay near me for cleanses and the other group near the holy pally, everyone spreads out randomly.

First go, our lock gets too close while we are trying to take our places, mass wipe.

Second go, same thing. Yes I'm serious, he did it again. We wipe.

Third go, we make it thought the first Repentance, tank is at about 10% when the heals hit him again. It is then that i find out that only me and the fury warrior have Deadly Boss Mods, no blessing of sacrifice from the holy pally=wipe before tank can move to the healers.

Fourth go......well 3 people left before we had a fourth go. Guild Leader looses his internet, and 2 more leave because they think it is over.
Me and the Warrior tank begin cursing like crazy, and call it quits for the night.

Our group was,
Prot Pally (me) (Blues and Purples)
Prot Warrior (Blues and PVP Purples)
Fury Warrior (S1)
Marks Hunter (S1)
Affliction Lock (Blues and S1)
Ice/Arcane Mage (S1 and S2)
Assassin Rogue (S1)
Resto Druid (blues)
Resto Shaman (S1 and S2)
Holy Pally (blues and S1)

I've made sure to run heroics with all the healers and while some are better than others, they all do fine. My off-tank can get aggro easily and does his job very well so I've got a lot of faith in him. All of our dps seem to do fine and I've done heroics with most of them.

From what I've learned about the fight everyone is suppose to spread out between the pillars around maiden and move in to the edge of her aura. Then me and the other pally need to pay attention to cleansing holy fire and the holy pally needs to keep Blessing of Sacrifice up on the tank before repentance hits so he can continue healing the tank through repentance. Past that it's just a dps race before the holy pally runs out of mana and can't heal through repentance.


The mood has been really grim in the guild this week, I don't want this to end kara but if we fail again i'm afraid it might.
Any advice?
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Postby guillex » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:54 pm

People need to stop being stupid.

You can line up around the OUTSIDE EDGE of the wall (up on the little ledge thing) before pulling. Once the pull is made, have everyone come up to just before the first step of her platform.

Other than that, people need to stop being stupid.
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Postby Brenna » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:02 pm

Make sure the holy pally has Decursive, and maybe a macro for easily keeping blessing of sacrifice up? And you don't have to have everyone around the room before you start, you can just run into place from the entrance at the same time as the pull if you want (though I guess it's good to have at least one healer in place - not so important for DPS though). So just tell your lock to stay back until the pull if he can't manage to get into place without aggroing Maiden. Sometimes you just have to see the fight a couple times before you get it, no reason to get quite so discouraged yet! You'll probably be fine next time.
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Postby Seloei » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:03 pm

Dont engage the boss before everyone of them is in positsions. If need be, start treating them like kids and talk slow and often. Often and often and often and say youl stop when they get it right.

Dont get upset, its just a new thing to learn. Once they finally realize what their supposed to do, it gets easy. (besides all healers getting stunned that is)

and ask a guildleader or someone to add a part to your gmotd: get raid announcements if you plan to raid (DBM or whatever you use)
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Postby Ana » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:10 pm

Explain to people that PvE and PvP is different for a reason.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Apr 08, 2008 1:41 pm

They are being blatantly stupid. Sorry but there's no way around it.
Go on youtube and do a search "How To: Maiden of Virtue" and give them the video. They are being stupid. Stupid. STUPID. This fight is all about raid positioning and quick cleansing.

The positioning isn't even hard, it's static.
If a shaman can't get the ass to pull a grounding totem, stick the totem up his butt and don't invite him anymore to the raid. Same goes for everyone doing it the dumb way unnecessarily.



Commiting mistakes is one thing. Repeating them is stupid.
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Postby Elvidnir » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:08 pm

Snake-Aes wrote: If a shaman can't get the ass to pull a grounding totem, stick the totem up his butt and don't invite him anymore to the raid.


I nearly spit mountain dew all over my monitor, thanks.

But yes, if your raid can't communicate and adapt to maiden, I would be calling it quits for raiding. Some people are just better suited to a solitary environment where nobody has to count on them to be of acceptable playing ability like battlegrounds.
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Postby Mizak » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:15 pm

Reading this post makes me realize I shudder a little inside everytime I see someone in BG gear doing raids.

The best post so far was that yes, PvE is not the same as PvP.

You had several wipes due to pure stupidity, sorry to be so blunt. Person wiping raid trying to complete a quest? Stupid. Person wiping raid because of failure of proper positioning....TWICE? Stupid.

They might as well have been in S3 gear, what difference does it make, they still would have wiped the raid.

Kara is probably the first "raid" setting for most players, the first step beyond 5-man heroics. It requires coordination and teamwork, something most people are not used to coming from pug battlegrounds and instances.

I mean, forget Maiden. Even after you kill Maiden, then what? Wipe contiunally on Curator because people don't know the switches to the sparks? Wipe endlessly on Aran because a single idiot insists on moving during flame wreaths?

If you are serious in advancing in a PvE environment, then you need good TEAM players. Players who will listen to and follow instruction (which doesn't sound like your Kara runs, since they can't even position themselves properly). Players who know their roles....which is why people in welfare epics always worry me because they usually get em with little knowledge or strategy and suddenly they think they are the bomb because they are all purple'd out.

Raids are a commitment. Take players who are commited to learning the encounters and learn to play as a team. Leave out players who can't follow instructions and only know how to pewpewpew.
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Postby Lookit » Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:43 pm

Two thoughts:

Maiden is entirely optional, so if you're having that much trouble on her, feel free to skip her and head elsewhere.

Also, it sounds like your raid is really unorganized and sloppy. Life is too short to spend it raiding with people like that. Either get some discipline and focus going in the raid or find a new guild. The latter is probably the more painless option.
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Postby Worldie » Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:05 pm

Prot Warrior (Blues and PVP Purples)


PVP + tank = ?????
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Postby sweeney » Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:17 pm

You don't have people in your Kara raid who are interested in raiding Kara. Not in a progression, oh wait I actually have to work for this sense. Yes, you could have skipped Maiden, but Opera would have stopped you cold; every fight from Moroes on requires people to actually do their jobs and listen.

Sorry. :(
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Postby Zhalseran » Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:02 pm

It sounds like its largely just stupidity tbh. If your telling these people these things then there isn't a whole lot else you can do. Honestly PvP gear isn't great for PvE... at all. That shouldn't make much differance on Maiden though so long as the tank is uncrittable with a decent health pool. Resto droods are great if your healers can't get their heads around BoSac. DBM doesn't make or break maiden at all, tbh. I can almost always time the BoSac properly even without it, I mean its up for what, 30 seconds?

it can take a few times to get a new fight. You can't expect to go anywhere if you aren't wlling to wipe a few times, 4 wipes is nothing. Albeit, the concept of standing inside the pillars, spreading out, cleansing holy fire and healing isn't super complicated. I know first time doing the fight, my guild had a hard time keeping the tank alive through repentance, albeit this was while the fight was still changing slightly, and before the BoSac trick was widely known. We essentially relied on the resto druid / priest renew to keep the tank up. I'm pretty sure you can bubble out of repentance, too.

Ultimately though, it sounds like you know the fight and know what you are doing. If you can get people to stop being stupid and actually listen to someone who knows what theyr doing, you should be fine. If the group can't do that, then GL progressing any further.
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Postby ehly » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:15 am

One thing that might help on a later attempt since they can't figure out how to space around maiden on their own. Is to have them all look at the mini map and assign everyone a specific column to stand by.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:18 am

Unless they're like the fat kid from Two and a Half Men, clock reference for positioning is good too.
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Postby Frickit » Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:38 am

Make sure everyone in your raid groups download Deadly Boss Mod?/Mobs, whatever its called lol. DBM!

After that just tell them to stay out of Maidens consecrate

Assign one person to cleanse and nothing but cleanse (for the most part)

Make sure your pally healer knows about BoSacrifice and he needs DBM to know when to cast it on the tank.

You can do it.
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