stuck in the middle

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stuck in the middle

Postby deadpyrowalking » Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:48 pm

ok so i have a problem... my guild just isnt cutting it with kara, we dont have a MT (im a OT) and in the past 3 weeks ive gotten only 4 badges out of kara. We have troubles getting everyone there and finding a MT so it just doesnt happen sometmies. Ive tried to get another guild to help me get badges/gear but noone is interested. I even tried to sign up for other guilds and like noone on my server is interested. Im doing SV and SH for the trink and cloak, but other than that i think im pretty set on pre-kara gear... i just dont know where to go from here because i cannot tank Heroics for badges, my guild just cant do kara for somereason (we call it kartarded), and noone wants to let me into runs as a DPS or OT in ANYTHING that could get me gear/ badges... anyone wanna help me??
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Postby Bevan » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:43 pm

Why can't you main tank it?
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Postby Blowhole » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:13 am

There's only two things I can think of if your only ways of getting badges are "impossible":

*Switch servers to a more populated/active one

*Spec holy and roll on tank gear no one wants and collect badges in the process

Sometimes if you find yourself in a "group finding" rut or your server is over saturated with tanks, spec'ing holy is the only other option. It's happened to me before... 2-3 days might pass and the only times I was on, no groups needed a tank so I ended up going Holy because I wanted the badges sooner than later.

I still don't understand why you can't tank heroics. If it's group fear about your HP pool, switch all of your gems around to +Stam and you're sitting well into the 12k range pre-Kings. Are people telling you that you can't tank heroics or is this something you believe because you've been unsuccessful in one or two before?
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Postby Rokh » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:00 am

Heroic botanica is a very good starting point, if you have just 1 CC the instance becomes laughable (bring a rogue, wound poision is the cheats on final boss)

And i was also wondering why you cant Main tank kara?

The guild i joined already had 2 kara groups run by warriors and i was not allowed to play in their reindeer games, so i made my own kara run from friends/alts/pugs... as long as you know the heals are good you can get pug dps... just make sure they are in at least blues.

Now my kara group can pull a full clear in under 3 hours compared to the other 'main' kara groups in my guild that take 4-5hour or 2 nights, i AoE tank everything except the ice bastards, and its a blast.
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Postby deadpyrowalking » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:29 pm

well i must say that i havent tried MTing kara but i dont think im that great of one so i dont really feel like trying it... also, i say that i cannot do heroics because ive tried heroic bot, sv, and ramps and havent gotten to the first boss in any. Ive gone over my strategy with a guy that MTs TK and SSC and he says my form is good and my gear is good enough but i still just cannot do it. My healer each time was a guildie in S2 holy pally gear so...
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Postby guillex » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:45 pm

deadpyrowalking wrote:well i must say that i havent tried MTing kara but i dont think im that great of one so i dont really feel like trying it... also, i say that i cannot do heroics because ive tried heroic bot, sv, and ramps and havent gotten to the first boss in any. Ive gone over my strategy with a guy that MTs TK and SSC and he says my form is good and my gear is good enough but i still just cannot do it. My healer each time was a guildie in S2 holy pally gear so...


PvP geared persons doing PvE not good.

Anyways, if you have a defeatist attitude, as it seems you do, then you're never going to get anywhere. We're not going to be able to help you because things will always come up on your end...

The first thing that you need to do is get your hands wet, and change your attitude. Once you stop beating yourself into the ground (wasn't it you who posted a thread saying that paladins can't MT through endgame?), you might have a chance.
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Postby deadpyrowalking » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:50 pm

ummm no i didnt post that and im just saying ive tried heroics and there hasnt been any chance for me to get better gear so i was wondering if there were any other things i could try...
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:00 pm

Unless you have 10k buffed hp, you are fine to do most heroics with a healer that understands what "downranking" and "preemptive healing" stand for.

Actually, with a good preemptive healer you can do many heroics at 10k hp. I did at 12 :p


My suggestion is to find a better group. Seems you have really sloppy healer/dps
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Postby deadpyrowalking » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:23 pm

ok well ill think about it ive also been meaning to go thru the new sunwell thing... hopefully some better gear there too
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Postby Ariashley » Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:13 pm

You mean Magister's Terrace? On regular, it's roughly equivalent to heroic Slave Pens in difficulty. It's a pretty tough instance to tank effectively - huge pulls with lots of casters. I tanked it twice this weekend and the first time through, we had several wipes (entire group was a guild group of either people's alts or off-spec, so no one wanted to kill me). Two of the wipes were definitely my fault because I got too close to a pull while marking. Two the healer's fault because he doesn't usually heal, and didn't know about the dmg the 2nd boss does at 20%.

Based on what you've said, I'd guess either your healer really isn't very good, or you're not familiar enough with the instances/pulls you're trying to do to be successful.

I tried tanking a heroic UB with a holy paladin in half PvP gear and half Kara gear. It was total fail. Couldn't get through the first pull - even with cc. I thought it was my gear, it wasn't. I tried again with a druid healer I didn't know, absolutely no issues in first heroic SP then heroic UB.

I'm a fairly cautious tankadin and not supremely confident in my ability to tank yet (only been 70 2 weeks). By that I mean that I usually take a 15 min break prior to tanking any instance and refresh myself on which trash mobs are the most dangerous and any specific boss strategies. I ALWAYS explain what I'm doing, what the kill order is, and how I expect DPS to behave. I'm known for giving people specific places to stand before a boss or a pull that's difficult or where people tend to die for being out of range of heals - like the guy in mech with the hammer - I assign the healer to stand in a specific place and the dps to run to a specific place when he raises his hammer so that no one is out of range of heals due to positioning.

That said, if you know you have a good healer (I'm guessing you don't) then the next issue is your pulling technique/rotations. What is killing you? Are you getting extra groups of mobs? Are you accidentally breaking cc with consecrate or similar? Are you not marking things and finding DPS pulling aggro because everyone is hitting different targets? Is DPS pulling aggro because your tanking rotation is sloppy and you're not generating enough threat? Is the DPS starting in on things before the mobs start hitting you? Are you getting squashed to death when holy shield drops because you panic? Identify the problem. Once you identify the problem, it's fixable.

I can't think of any reason why you couldn't MT Kara if you do your homework in advance (watch videos if you're not familiar with the bosses). Paladins make pretty lousy OTs actually, since so much paladin threat is from reflected damage (ret aura, BoSanc, Holy Shield) or is mana based (which you will run out of if you're not getting damaged).
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Postby deadpyrowalking » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:12 pm

yea ive been gaining gear and got the new sheilds and i can complete heroic mech XD, though i havent started CFR heroics yet... havent done kara in a few weeks though cuz of guild problems but definate improvements on my tanking thanks for alll the help everyone!
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Postby deadpyrowalking » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:13 pm

also i found out that tivaleaf, my friend who heals for me a lot, didnt know very much about healing, like pre-emptive healing and using PvE gear... ive forgiven him and we work better now XD
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Postby uke » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:28 am

I've found that a competant healer makes all, and I mean A-L-L, the difference in the world in determining how easy (or painful) heroics and Kara are.

If you are at least 11000 health unbuffed, and 485 defense, then you can do heroics...IF you have a competant healer.

In my old guild, or main healer (and the guild master) was a holy pally who had good gear and stats (about +1100 healing) but for the life of me would use ONLY flash of light 95% of the time. We'd try a heroic slave pens run, and I died on the first pull from getting pounded for 1000+ dmg a hit x 3 mobs, and was only getting healed for about 1000 every 1.5sec. End result, death.

When I asked her to use holy light, she complained that it burned through her mana way too fast and holy light took too long to cast. But then again, I was dying while her mana bar was still mostly full... :?

Next night I did a h-Underbog run with a pug group and a well geared/skilled holy pally. We were aoe pulling everything in the place and charged through it, all because the healer knew what they were donig.

If your stats are where they should be for heroics, but you're dying a lot, then it's your healer's fault. Period.
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Postby deadpyrowalking » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:23 pm

i know we arent supposed to do this but also anyone looking at this post could you give my gear a quick look, i might not have on my continuum blade sometimes (i do quests with my KD) and i also have alt gear.... if i do have my tank gear on could you look at my gear/chants/gems and give any suggestions? ill try to log off with my best gear on
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Postby Aerfalle » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:34 pm

deadpyrowalking wrote:well i must say that i havent tried MTing kara but i dont think im that great of one so i dont really feel like trying it...

If you don't think you're a good tank and don't feel like even attempting to main tank, then why do you care whether your guild does kara or whether you ever tank heroics?

No matter how perfect your pre-kara or pre-heroic gear is, or how well you have the normal instances down, the first heroics are rough. On my first we wiped practically every pull, and I had a t5.5 healer.

It's surprising to me that you've never made it to a first boss, especially in ramps where there are not a lot of pulls!
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