Prince Safe Spots?

Attumen, Moroes, Maiden, Opera, Curator, Illhoof, Aran, Netherspite, Chess, Prince, Nightbane

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Postby Everlight » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:57 pm

Canuun wrote:Sure, if you over gear the encounter and/or have all ranged (non-shadow priest) dps, it'll work like a charm.


Pure hogwash. I've been doing Prince that way since I was in 5-man blues, and the very first kill we got of him I was standing in an Infernal. The only situation where you get zero melee DPS is when you get both of the Infernals at the same time along the right wall. The only situation where you get zero Shadow Priest DPS is when you get the closest Infernal along the right wall.

In the latter case, the Shadow Priest can just shift out and help heal while he waits. In the former case, your melee is boned, but your raid doesn't wipe, it just takes longer to drop him.

Invisusira wrote:500 is still a waterdrop in the ocean. Why? Because the locations are random. There are not an infinite number of locations - there are only so many pixels - but it's damn close. And until you present me with a map of all the static spawn locations, you can't say otherwise.


I don't need to present you with a map of all of them. You are refusing to acknowledge something that is blindingly obvious. If they were indeed random, why aren't we seeing clumping? If they were indeed random, why is it I can always move from my standing spot about 1 yard to the side and get out of range of the AOE? If they were indeed random, why do the two infernals on that picture match up?

I just showed you a pair of screenshots taken from a (you admitted yourself) extremely small sample of Infernal drops, and whatdya know? Two are in the same spot. Why did that happen?

You asked for some evidence, you got it. Now you say it's not enough. Figure the rest out for yourself, and for the love of God, use your brain.
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Postby Invisusira » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:36 pm

Drop the high and mighty derogatory bullshit, I'm just trying to have a conversation here.

1) From my observations, they have a distance check when they land. The aoes won't overlap.

2) Two similarly place infernals ≠ proof that they have spawn locations.
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Postby Invisusira » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:44 pm

Upon further review of the screenshots, I'd say that the two you linked as "something noteworthy:"
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/9519 ... ipenk5.jpg
http://www.outofmobs.com/wordpress/wp-c ... group2.jpg
...are actually showing just the opposite of what you thought. Look again at the placement. Now look at the camera angle. Those two are not in the same place.

Edit: A little Photoshop to fix the camera angle and align the walls perfectly:
Image
Last edited by Invisusira on Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby bubblecannon » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:54 pm

We've tried the wowwiki spots before - they do seem to work, we've never worn an elemental in there. But it's an absolute PITA for shadow priests and melee. In the end, we just got our tanks to l2tps and nuke prince down.

Prince is like a lot of bosses. If you smash the sucker hard the fight mechanics are made substantially easier. Prince with 7 dps & 2 healers just carves him up like a sunday roast.

Edit:
Your ranged classes should be going absolutely bonkas on this fight. It's virtually static with nothing to do for long periods of time. Should be all around 1k DPS at least. As long as you've got a half decent tank 700+ TPS and BoSalv you should nail him in well under 3 mins.

Just start the fight absolutely balls to the wall with threat (misdirect, wings, destro pot) and go dee-pee-ess
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Postby Everlight » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:06 am

Ok then, let's have a conversation - you most certainly haven't been coming across as such.

To my eyes, those two shots show the same Infernal. The smaller shot is closer to the wall, while the larger shot is further out (as in the point of view where the shot was taken).

Now, some Youtube vids. Most of the vids are pretty bad on account of people focusing more on Malchezaar than the Infernals, but yeah.

A) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLI5CdHBm7c

At 0:05, you can see the rock referred to in the screenshots. This should help with locating where everything is. At 0:30, the first infernal that lands matches up with the middle Infernal in the larger screenshot. Note that the Prince himself is tanked further to the left in that movie than in the screenshot, and the whole raid is moved further to the left.

B) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueH7kfQJpdc

At 4:40, pay careful attention where the Infernals are in relation to the rooftops.

C) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xie8yajoEZ4
2:14 - Look at the infernal that drops to the left, matches up with the leftmost on the SS.
2:45 - Note the position on this Infernal, I'll discuss later when I review more vids.
6:45 - Note the two infernals down the back, in particular look at the rightmost one - note its position in relation to the rooftops. This matches up with the Infernal noted in Movie B.
Last edited by Everlight on Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Everlight » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:07 am

Invisusira wrote:Edit: A little Photoshop to fix the camera angle and align the walls perfectly:


The wall segments do, but where's the rock in the background?

I'm inclined to think that the angle is playing trickery with the view, since the walls have funny edges on them. Also notice the edging on the corner is different, it's viewed from a different angle.
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Postby Invisusira » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:38 am

Like I said, Infernals landing in similar spots is not only possible, it's downright common. The Youtube vids are (like you mentioned) terrible quality and not focusing on infernals.

Due to the layout, texture, and coloration of the terrace, screenshots will always present themselves with infernals that look "the same" when, in fact, they are not. Your best bet would be to stick someone on "camera duty" and then wipe. That is -

Have them stand in one place and die, then not move the camera.
Screenshot some infernals.
Wipe.
Don't res the person.
Do it again, more screenshots.
Repeat until you have multiple instances of infernals in the EXACT (not similar) same place.

That's the only way I see getting somewhat solid "infernals have EXACT locations" proof.
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Postby mazater » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:39 am

Personally, I don't think that the infernals drops are completely random.
I've run trough karazhan with my 3 alts, and when we're using a "safe spot" on the left side of the terrace, I've only once seen an infernal drop to the other end of the terrance.

However, when we're using the "safe spot" at the door, I've yet to see an infernal wich drops to the other end of the terrace (Left side in this case).

My personal belief is that the infernals have a higher chance to land nearby the place where most raid members are, rather than dropping miles away from the raid members.
Wich means that there are no safe spots whatsoever.
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Postby Everlight » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:53 am

Invisusira wrote:Due to the layout, texture, and coloration of the terrace, screenshots will always present themselves with infernals that look "the same" when, in fact, they are not. Your best bet would be to stick someone on "camera duty" and then wipe.


Yep. Alternatively, collect the shots over several weeks - just chuck a flare where an Infernal is before he disappears, and screenshot all the flares post-mortem.

The reason why I am convinced that Infernals always land in the same spot is because of how we do the fight.

I'm always standing in the exact same spot - I line myself up with the tiling pattern on the floor, which is very distinctive where I stand.

Where the Infernal to my right spawns, I always have to move the same distance to the left to be clear of it. Doesn't matter if it's the first Infernal to drop or the tenth. It's always the same distance to get away from him.

Here's the spot;

Image

If they were random, or used a collision avoidance algorithm, I would expect I'd have to move different distances each time, since the exact location would be different. But I don't.

I realize this is anecdotal. I've already asked my Guild to front any screenshots they may have that might have Infernals in them. Since we always do it the same way, the camera angles should be nearly identical in each one.

I'd suggest you do the same.
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Postby NarfJones » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:02 am

I want to know why it matters very much when hundreds of guilds clear Prince Melchazaar every week. Even if we discovered real"safe spots" which I doubt exists as the Infernal's most likely use a common vector algorithm, Blizzard would probably have to nerf it. It just seems like an exercise in futility for me.
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Postby Everlight » Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:05 am

NarfJones wrote:I want to know why it matters very much when hundreds of guilds clear Prince Melchazaar every week.


And billions of people don't give a rat's what happens in WoW at all. The very nature of theorycrafting is the desire to KNOW, regardless of whether something can be done in ignorance of the knowledge or not.

NarfJones wrote:It just seems like an exercise in futility for me.


Anything you do in WoW is ultimately an exercise in futility. That doesn't mean it's not worth doing.
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Postby sbeacher » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:22 am

I've killed Maiden "at least 50 times" and she's never dropped the neck. But after reading this thread I reailize it's not bad luck, it just doesn't exist!
Image
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Postby palouf » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:40 am

sbeacher wrote:I've killed Maiden "at least 50 times" and she's never dropped the neck. But after reading this thread I reailize it's not bad luck, it just doesn't exist!


Every guild run has the bad and good luck with loots, safe spots etc...
Maiden necklace dropped 5 times for us in about 15 runs...even our holy pala and arms warrior got theirs now...but we never saw the virtuous shard drop for example...

I haven't so many experience with Prince, we just down him 3 times with a one shot for the last run...but it seems that there's not safe spot for the tank... so we use the normal spot on the far right side (back to the wall) so that healers and ranged are inside the door...Seems to work well until now...Healers can cope with the extra damage from 1 infernal near the tank.
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Postby fuzzygeek » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:59 am

Everlight wrote:Here's the spot;


That's exactly where I prefer to tank Prince. Well, no, my right foot is closer to the tip of the triangle to the right of the (97%) in your screenshot.

Ranged and healers are 30 yards to my left, towards the doorway.

Usually this works flawlessly; the last seven weeks or so. This past week, however, we had infernals drop right on top of ranged, who were standing in the doorway.

Twice.

Everlight wrote:I realize this is anecdotal.


So's mine. Is my anecdotal evidence equivalent to yours?

Everlight wrote:If they were random, or used a collision avoidance algorithm, I would expect I'd have to move different distances each time, since the exact location would be different. But I don't.


See, I'd tend to agree with the point you're making here. I think there's some confusion over what exactly the discussion is.

The exact spot an infernal spawns may be static. The order of spawn points is random; I don't think there's much question about that. Blizzard has stated that they like the random mechanic in place during the Prince fight, because damn near everyone else hates it.

Regardless, I'm inclined to believe that infernals do spawn on static points. I also think these points are laid out such that hellfire will overlap if you get too many infernals (e.g., it functions as a soft enrage timer).

I've heard that there is a spot you can stand next to the broken pillar in the doorway that healers/ranged can LOS the hellfire damage, such that even if an infernal drops right in front of them, they will take no damage. I've never used it, but I've heard about it from guildies who use it occasionally in pugs and whatnot.

Is this what you mean by a "safe spot"?

There are two different discussions going on here:

1) Infernals have static spawn points.

2) The layout of the static spawn points is such that there is a magical safe spot where the raid can stand and never take damage.

I'm inclined to agree with #1. From a programming point of view, it's kind of stupid to have a random drop location for the FIRST infernal, then run all kinds of geometry checks for i+1 every time. The simpler and more elegant solution is to just select a random static spawn location every time an infernal drops.

I found some fraps from the first time we tried prince. This screen shot is at the 6 minute mark, and the central area is carpeted with infernals. If you look at the hellfire locations, they seem to overlap by the same amounts.

Image

Looks like the only safe place to be at this point is ... in the doorway!

Here's a screen shot from the next attempt; I'd started out tanking him against the western wall, and got chased into the doorway. You can see I'm standing right in front of the pillar, and there's an elemental hellfiring nearby. I'm not taking any hellfire damage here.

Image

So it looks like if your ranged is all standing at this spot, unless another infernal drops right on the doorstep, they can stand here with impuny. The tank will be wearing a few infernals, but that may not be a big deal -- with sufficient healing, you can just heal through that.

I don't have any screen shots of an infernal standing right on the lip of the doorway. Given the placement of the guy in the above screenshot and the theory of Least Minimal Distance between infernals, I'm not positive there's space for one.

I do think that the next time I do prince I'm going to angle my camera to watch the door.
Image
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Postby Everlight » Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:14 am

Excellent screenshots, and this is exactly what I'm talking about - the two Infernals in the background of your doorway shot are the two that spawn along that right wall. Where you are standing tanking is where our ranged stands.

Another thing with that screenshot. Look at the third video I posted. At exactly 2:13, an Infernal drops, and its position matches up with your screenshot (the far left one on your SS). At 3:54, the person rotates around so you can see clearly how far out from the wall that Infernal is. It's the same one. At 8:43, an Infernal lands, that matches up with the Infernal that's on top of Prince on your SS. The positioning is easy to pick because the tank doesn't move and the camera is from nearly the same angle.

I come from a programming background, and also agree (although it's just conjecture) that it is much easier and more reasonable to just program a bunch of static spawn locations that mess with some complex collision avoidance tomfoolery.
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