Minimum stats (gear) for Prince

Attumen, Moroes, Maiden, Opera, Curator, Illhoof, Aran, Netherspite, Chess, Prince, Nightbane

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Minimum stats (gear) for Prince

Postby Stos » Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:52 pm

Hey guys,

Before my question I wanted to thank everyone again for this wonderful resource. It's helped me immensely in a lot of ways.

My question is what are the minimum recommended (buffed) stats for tanking Prince?

I've searched the forums a bunch and I can't seem to find a good answer to that. Lots of people ask if they're good enough and then people comment on that but as you know armory links change, etc. so I'd like it if someone could just list a bunch of text numbers HP, Armor, pure avoidance (dodge/miss/parry), block value I guess. Maybe even +holy damage for good measure.

I'm asking because last weekend we attempted Prince for the first time with me as the tank and I died pretty quick during phase 2. I wasn't parry-gibbed but I was thrashed for 3 hits around 4-5k each (blocked 260-ish) and insta-died. I have 15.5k HP buffed but with 12-15k damage coming in less than 1 second it's hard to survive.

In case you care here's the WWS logs. The 3-hit I'm talking about is in the third attempt at 20:27'24.413. Ignore the first 2 attempts. I accidentally forgot to switch my libram back from healing to tanking and was getting crushed and my positioning was screwed up, etc. Like I said, first time tanking there.

I realize I can still improve a bunch in technique and timing. (I think I still managed to get crushed once or twice in the third attempt due to loosing aggro and him behind me or missing a HS cooldown or something but those didn't kill me.) What I'm concerned about is getting insta-killed with 15k of damage in < 1 sec. So is there a min HP or armor req I don't meet?

Thanks,
-Stos
Stos
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:22 pm

Postby NarfJones » Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:08 pm

I can appreciate that you searched, so I will give you an answer. As of late, there is almost more information than someone could wade through in a day. The minimum stats to tank Prince melchazaar are dependant upon the rest of your group. Just like every other boss, your healer's and DPs' gear matter for success too. As most groups that do this are partway geared out of Karazhan we'll work with that.

Uncrushable - period.

Buffed HP - 16-17k minimum. The thrashes and parries in P2 will hit for that pretty much every time at your gear level. Get as many stam buffs as you can from the raid to help you get there. Power Word:Fortitude/Commanding Shout/Warlock's Blood Pact/ +Stamina Food

Armor - Not really controllable as armor is set by ilevel. Your best bet is to chain drink ironshield potions which will increase your armor by 2000. You'll see the hits shrink a significant amount this way.

Dodge/Parry/Block - This is a big subject for debate among a lot of tanks. All you need to know in this circumstance is that the more dodge you have the better. You don't have access to a lot of the high Block Value gear which is the real benefit to block rating. Your threat also increases with block because of Holy shield, but as Prince melchazaar is a demon, threat shouldn't be an issue. So, if you have the option between dodge and block, go for dodge.

As for technique, Holy Shield is your first priority, always. It should be punched at the close of every global cooldown. Every other ability takes a backseat in this fight.

Hope that helps.
Last edited by NarfJones on Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
NarfJones
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 859
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:30 am

Postby Refute » Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:40 pm

I agree with what Narf said. Definitely make sure you have 102.4 avoidance (search for macro that will calculate this for you) to make sure you are uncrushable (this is in addition to being uncrittable, obviously).

Also, I suggest you flask yourself as you are learning the fight, it will help. Also make sure you have Stam food, wizard oil, pots, etc.
Refute
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:30 pm

Postby Stos » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:22 am

Thanks for the responses.

I guess I'll try to improve my buffed stamina to 17k. I just got the badge chest piece and dumping some temp gems in there until I have a chance to get better ones so that'll definitely help a bit. Unfortunately I don't have a warrior to do commanding shout or a warlock to do the imp buff so +30 stam food and Fort is all I got.

Thanks for the reminders about uncrushable and uncrittable. I'm definitely both when I have my tanking gear on. Was just swapped out to heal for Shade and somehow missed the libram swap back which left me like 1% crushable.

-Stos
Stos
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:22 pm

Postby Refute » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:06 am

Make sure you bring a flask or two (or elixirs) and, as was mentioned, drink ironshield potions during phase 2, it will really, really help your healers out (make sure you get several stacks until he is on "farm" status).

Other than that, let us know how it goes. :)
Refute
 
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:30 pm

Postby grymwulf » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:45 am

Depending on how I figure it, with my Raid boss set I've got a .31% chance of a crushing blow landing while only self-buffed.

14.6k hp (self only)

15.5k Armor
22% dodge

And I can last pretty long during Phase two with only one healer up. Can't get through it, if one of our two healers has died it's a bust of an attempt.

I can reach about 18k buffed (Fort/Stam Food/Flask/Mark of Wild)

Depending on raid composition the following help:

Shaman Grace of Air Totem
DPS Feral Druid (Imp Leader of the Pack)
Warlock Imp
Warrior Commanding Shout
DPS Pally judging wisdom for phase 1, crusader for phase 2 (helps regen mana from front-load and buff spell dmg for phase 2)

Other pointers:

Phase 2:
Stop attacking and rely on HS/Exorcism to generate aggro (Prevents parry gibs for low-hp tanks)
Pop Figurine of the Colossus
Moroe's Lucky Pocket Watch

If you are lucky and pop'd avenging wrath to front load-aggro during phase 1, Avenging wrath will either become available during the tail end of phase 2, beginning of phase 3. Use it again there and just use every aggro generating ability you have. Heck during phase 3, throw the Cpt. America shield!
Image
Image
User avatar
grymwulf
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:02 am

Postby Ryyu » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:10 pm

Another tip is in Phase one Time your AW with a destruction Potion. If you aiming for the No attacks strat of phase 2. Keep your Ironsheilds for phase 2. Since phase one is Just about threat.
User avatar
Ryyu
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 9:49 pm

Postby Xanatos » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:46 pm

Also helps to have an avoidance weapon to switch to during Phase 2 (i.e. Sun Eater). Enchant with 20 agi instead of mongoose if you're going down the not-attacking-during-phase2 route. Remember to switch back to your usual weapon during phase 3.
Image
User avatar
Xanatos
 
Posts: 252
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:33 am

Postby Blitzago » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:48 pm

so you dont get insta parry gibbed, just stop attacking during phase 2, it depends on how fast your DPS can get threw it also, I also carry a suneater with 20 agi on it for avoidance like the post above me stated. But threat should not be an issue here and you should be getting plenty of mana back from heals.

What I usually do is pop wings right when im starting to build up as much threat as possible so the DPS can go all out for phase 2 + 3 to get through him hitting like a tank and the axes.

I usually like to do Get seal of right or crusader out, throw a AS at him, cause HS and then consecrate and judge and repeat

I like to keep crusader up to increase my threat output which really helps alot.

Just make sure all the heals are coming to you during phase 2.

I only run with 2 healers a pally and a druid or priest. so I have hots on me and the pally usually spams heals.

Just make sure your uncrushable and uncrittable and you will be fine.
Blitzago
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 3:12 am

Postby Uthadanin » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:04 am

You really shouldn't be loosing healers in this fight, they should be in the door way by that pillar, tank along the right wall.

I always carry a few agility V scrolls (but I also tend to forget to turn off auto attack in phase two.
Image
Image
User avatar
Uthadanin
 
Posts: 403
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:01 am
Location: Colonie, NY

Postby Endus » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:56 pm

No way you need 16k+ health buffed.

I dropped Prince for the first time with just over 14k health, buffed. This past weekend, I had about 15.5k buffed, with better gear than that first time, and as far as tanking went, it was almost trivial; out of 10 runs at him, he only hit me for a triple Thrash a few times, and he never actually dropped me before my healers went down. That first time, my healers were comparably geared to me, perhaps a bit better, but still in that range; none of us had been past Kara by then.

We did ten runs, and ten wipes, but that came down to having only two healers, one of whom is just starting Kara, along with a few DPS for whom it was their first night in Kara starting at Prince and who weren't really familiar with the tactics, and some downright vicious Infernal placements in at least 8 of those 10 wipes. The only time I went down before my healers were a couple wipes where four of our DPS went down early due to not noticing an Infernal that hit them just after an Enfeeble, and that was a case of running out of mana because phase 2 dragged too long.

Now, I say "almost trivial", but I still had to be using consumables, and on top of my game. I only mean statistically; there was never a case where I was being dropped from incoming damage too quickly for my healers. Is it possible for me to eat a triple thrash, followed by me parrying, and him hitting me again? Sure. Is it likely? Nope. I put the chances of that happening as much less likely than bad infernal placements.
Image
Endus
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:30 am

Postby Stos » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:46 pm

Endus wrote:No way you need 16k+ health buffed.

I dropped Prince for the first time with just over 14k health, buffed. This past weekend, I had about 15.5k buffed, with better gear than that first time, and as far as tanking went, it was almost trivial; out of 10 runs at him, he only hit me for a triple Thrash a few times, and he never actually dropped me before my healers went down. That first time, my healers were comparably geared to me, perhaps a bit better, but still in that range; none of us had been past Kara by then.

We did ten runs, and ten wipes, but that came down to having only two healers, one of whom is just starting Kara, along with a few DPS for whom it was their first night in Kara starting at Prince and who weren't really familiar with the tactics, and some downright vicious Infernal placements in at least 8 of those 10 wipes. The only time I went down before my healers were a couple wipes where four of our DPS went down early due to not noticing an Infernal that hit them just after an Enfeeble, and that was a case of running out of mana because phase 2 dragged too long.

Now, I say "almost trivial", but I still had to be using consumables, and on top of my game. I only mean statistically; there was never a case where I was being dropped from incoming damage too quickly for my healers. Is it possible for me to eat a triple thrash, followed by me parrying, and him hitting me again? Sure. Is it likely? Nope. I put the chances of that happening as much less likely than bad infernal placements.


Are the chances really low?

The way I see it I have roughly 50% pure avoidance. (It's a bit higher but the mob is 73 not 70 so whatever. 50% even makes the calculations easier.) That means if he thrashes the chances of him getting 3 blocked hits on me is 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 or 1 in 8 (12.5%). This seems fairly likely to occur to me during phase 2. Doesn't he thrash close to 8 times during this phase or are the number of thrashes I saw in that fight unusually high? Or perhaps my DPS is low enough (raid DPS was < 3000) that I'm spending too long in phase 2 such that the chances of this happening are too high?

Stacking avoidance doesn't seem to be an answer. Even if I get up to 70% pure avoidance which I think would be amazing at my gear level. It's still a 3/10 * 3/10 * 3/10 or 2.7% chance of getting hit 3 times in a row so if he thrashes 8 times I have a 21.6% chance of dying on any given prince run. That seems really crappy given such amazing avoidance stats.

If on the other hand I get my HP up to 17k then even if I take the 13k-ish damage I can still take another hit before I die or more importantly if my healers don't heal a 3k hit then I won't insta-die if I get hit for 13k before their heal goes off.

I guess once I look at it that way the EH requirement I should have for this fight is the ability to take 4 hits without healing and survive. If it comes to 5 hits then it's a healing failure unless it's a parry death. If I take 2 thrashes in a row and at least 5 are blocks it's just a ridiculously bad string of luck although not impossible. (1/2)^5 is 3.1%

It still seems ridiculous to me that a boss can in rare circumstances burst > 12,000 dps at the T4 level. It seems more random luck to win/lose than actual skill/gear.

In any case buffed with my new gear my HP is over 16k and with a flask it will be over 16.5k. If I can get around to farming TK for rep and get the crest of sha'tar my HP and armor should go up again and this fight should be doable except in extremely unlucky cases.

Thanks again for the advice,
-Stos
Stos
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:22 pm

Postby Endus » Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:45 am

Stos wrote:Are the chances really low?

The way I see it I have roughly 50% pure avoidance. (It's a bit higher but the mob is 73 not 70 so whatever. 50% even makes the calculations easier.) That means if he thrashes the chances of him getting 3 blocked hits on me is 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/2 or 1 in 8 (12.5%). This seems fairly likely to occur to me during phase 2. Doesn't he thrash close to 8 times during this phase or are the number of thrashes I saw in that fight unusually high? Or perhaps my DPS is low enough (raid DPS was < 3000) that I'm spending too long in phase 2 such that the chances of this happening are too high?


I'm not sure what my raid DPS was, but we had two people who'd never done Kara or Heroics before and thus were almost entirely in blues, on DPS, for the fight. We also had three melee DPS, which is suboptimal since they need to book it if they get Enfeebled.

You'll eat a triple thrash. I know I ate several. A triple thrash, through 14kish armor, is about 12k damage, though; if your healers are spamming big heals on you even if you're unhurt, you should get healed back up fairly quick; you only need one heal going off before his next attack to ensure you're safe.

I'm just reporting the numbers; 11 wipes, some in which 3-4 DPS died while we slowly fought through Phase 2, and I didn't get OMGpwned by his damage. Admittedly, when I had 14.5k buffed, I did. Once. It also helps that I have Moroes' Pocket Watch, and if I see a Thrash drop me, I pop it for a massive Dodge increase, to give my healers a chance to get me back up.


Stacking avoidance doesn't seem to be an answer. Even if I get up to 70% pure avoidance which I think would be amazing at my gear level. It's still a 3/10 * 3/10 * 3/10 or 2.7% chance of getting hit 3 times in a row so if he thrashes 8 times I have a 21.6% chance of dying on any given prince run. That seems really crappy given such amazing avoidance stats.

If on the other hand I get my HP up to 17k then even if I take the 13k-ish damage I can still take another hit before I die or more importantly if my healers don't heal a 3k hit then I won't insta-die if I get hit for 13k before their heal goes off.


Stamina is good, don't get me wrong. I'm desperately trying to boost my stamina; I had a dearth of decent drops there for a while. My biggest issue is my legs; I'm still using the Timewarden leggings, and I refuse to regem them or put Nethercleft on them, as they're blue. I'm waiting for either my Wrynn Dynasty Greaves from Curator, or grinding out another 100 badges and waiting for 2.4, for the new badge pants. 12.6k unbuffed HP is a bit low, I know. I'm just stating that you can drop Prince at lower values, as I have. It's rougher, to be sure, but possible, and I wouldn't suggest someone avoid trying; all you have to lose is repair money.


[/quote]It still seems ridiculous to me that a boss can in rare circumstances burst > 12,000 dps at the T4 level. It seems more random luck to win/lose than actual skill/gear.[/quote]

I think the biggest issue is the Infernals. My guild still hasn't figured out the Safe Zones, either that or they don't really exist (not opening that can of worms here, there's a thread on it elsewhere. I don't like the door tactic, because if I get an Infernal, it's much more awkward for a paladin to handle knockback from Shadow Nova without a wall to back onto. Eating that kind of DPS is a bit nuts, but if your healers are ready for it, it's not horrible. If need be, bring three healers, which should help with mana and provide enough overhealing to help out.
Image
Endus
 
Posts: 33
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:30 am

Postby Shirak » Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:46 am

There is a basic test to see if you can tank Prince...

If you can tank a Greater Fleashbeast, then you are set.

Many of you can scoff at me but the truth is, those things hit hard and fast. When I could survive tanking one of those I had no problems with Prince.

I had 14-15K HP buffed hp.
Tuberon wrote:Tanking *is* crowd control.

You run into a crowd, and proceed to control it.
User avatar
Shirak
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:29 am

Postby Stos » Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:47 am

Thanks again for all the advice guys.

I got my buffed HP to around 16.7k and started using agility scrolls, armor scrolls, flask of fort, etc. for our attempts this week. Also go the S1 gavel to improve my spelldamage, etc.

We put in many attempts on Prince this weekend and finally got him on Monday. The good news is that on most of the attempts we lost due to bad infernal placement and such and basically the raid dying before I did. On a few fights though (1 or 2 of the 10 or so attempts) I was still killed during phase 2 due to burst damage (4-5 hits in < 2 seconds). I looked at the logs and realized that I was getting parried myself even though I thought I had disengaged. Turns out that something about either applying SoR or JoR starts me autoattacking again so after that I started spamming my '/stopattack' macro after JoR and it seemed much easier to survive.

I guess I'm just a noob but in case someone else comes across this thread it might help to remember to continue to disengage during phase 2 after using JoR for threat.

On a happy note we then proceeded to Nightbane and got him on our 7th try and I got the Pally shield which although not as good as the tanking one still looks sweet and was a big upgrade from my netherwing shield in most stats, +1300 armor lol.

Thanks again,
-Stos
Stos
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:22 pm

Next

Return to Karazhan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest