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Test: Prince Malchezaar Result: Fail

Attumen, Moroes, Maiden, Opera, Curator, Illhoof, Aran, Netherspite, Chess, Prince, Nightbane

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Test: Prince Malchezaar Result: Fail

Postby Freece » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:42 am

Hello all, first time posting here. I love the site, and I find it a valuable resource for my personal tanking endeavors. Props to the contributors, your efforts do not go unnoticed.

First a little background on my situation. I am one of the 2 main tanks for our guild, the other being a tauren prot warrior. We just finished up our third week in Karazhan with attempts on Prince. Our first week we cleared Opera, second week added Curator and Chess event to the list, and this last week we downed Aran and Illhoof. Last night we had our first attempts on Prince with me as the main tank. We had probably around 6~ attempts before calling it a night, and I'm prepared to attribute our failure solely on myself. Here is my armory:

http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/chara ... d&n=Freece

First, let me say that completely raid buffed with food and pots, I sit at about 14.9k HP, somewhere around 14.5k~ armor, and am 5% away from uncrushable. I'm pretty sure most of you are /facepalming right about now, but in my defense, we've blown through KZ way faster than I had anticipated, and as it stands I had been struggling to gear for Karazhan in the first place. I know everybody has problem getting certain items to drop, but I've been following the "11.5k HP and uncrushable pre-Kara" guide and, as you may have ascertained already, anything on that list that is dropped from a 5-man has thus far eluded me. I'm trying my best and I have to say that gearing for a Paladin tank is the single most difficult thing I've ever had to do in this game. I've barely been able to scrape together heroic runs so I'm still well short of getting the almighty libram that no self respecting paladin would be without, and indeed, with that I would reach uncrushable, however I don't think that having 42 extra block rating would have been the win button for our attempts (feel free to set me straight on that if necessary).

I'm not really looking for advice on gear...I'm well aware of my deficiencies and hopefully I can scrape together a couple more heroics to get uncrushable. What I would like to know is...am I wasting my guild's time trying to tank prince? The other MT warrior is geared almost the same as me, so would a warrior in equivalent gear be better for the job?

If you are looking for details on our Prince attempts, I was using an in game combat logger so I can give you a pretty accurate assessment of why I died each time.

I should preface this by saying I was never crushed during phase 2 (oddly enough) and I was only crushed in phase 1 once, twice max which the healers had no problem with (crushing would hit me for between 5200 and 5600). We basically experienced 2 types of wipes, the initial attempts were at 50%~ and the last attempts were mid-30%~ with our best attempt clocking in at 33%. The initial wipes were something like this:

Miss
4000~
-----
Miss
Dodge
-----
4500~
4200~
-----
Miss
3700~

Dead.

Am I correct in concluding that during phase 2, he will get 2 attacks near simultaneously with the chance at getting a third with thrash? The initial attempts we had some bad luck on infernal spawns, one wipe I moved to avoid an infernal and went out of healer range, but the real heartbreaking wipes happened in our final few attempts. Once the healers were acclimated to the healing burst needed during phase 2, I started dieing close to the 30% mark pretty much every time. It went something like this:

Parry
3900~
-----
Dodge
Miss
-----
4200~
4000~
3700~

Dead.

We would get so close to 30% but he would invariably burst me down sooner or later.

Sorry for the long winded post, I'm just a little frustrated because things are going so fast and I can't keep up gear-wise. It's hard to face your raid and say "you guys did everything perfect but we can't win this fight because of me". Am I getting hit too hard? Should I prioritize certain pots for this fight? Do I need a flask? I've tanked most of KZ up to this point, and I can definitely see that Prince is a gear check for tanks.

Any insight would be appreciated, even if its just a simple "you can't tank this fight". Thanks

Freece
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Postby Ownopotamus » Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:49 am

If you are going for your first prince kills then the following might help:

-Chug armor pots during phase 2
-Nightmare Seed during Phase 2
-Healers must spam heal during this phase
-Use heroisms during phase 2
-Get a flask

This fight is basically a DPS as much as a gear check. Burn through phase 2 ASAP. You know you need the libram so get that fir this week and you should be fine on tanking this man.
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Postby Daedricks » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:07 am

Libram of Repentance is pretty much a must-have for you, and I would run every heroic you can until you get enough badges for it. Obviously you want to hit uncrushable as fast as you can as well.

Though normally I want loot to be evenly distributed, you have a good case for making sure you get first dibs on the tanking stuff--especially if you are the one tanking Prince. It isn't quite as bad as pre-BC, but the gear of the tank in many ways does determine how far the raid goes. Now, obviously if the gear doesn't drop, then the gear doesn't drop.

Otherwise, during the actual fight itself, this is what I do--

Pots:
Elixir of Major Fortitude
Adept's Elixir

Phase 1:
-Spelldamage weapon.
-Remove SW:P off myself as quick as possible so healers can stay at max range
-JoW, SoR
-Spam holy shield

Phase 2:
-Switch to mitigation weapon (if you don't have a King's Defender or Suneater, even a Grom'tor's Charge is better than nothing)
-Use Ironshield Potions right before phase 2, and again when the CD is up
-JoL, SoR
-REALLY spam holy shield
-You should have plenty of threat by this phase, so have DPS burn all CDs/trinkets

Phase 3:
-Same as phase 1


Basically, Phase 2 Prince is a change for healers. They are used to be reactionary up until this point. For this fight they need to be spamming the heals on you nonstop. If you can survive through Phase 2 (which is a tank gear check and a DPS check) then Phase 3 is just about healer endurance.
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Postby Daedricks » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:09 am

Oh, also, switch that +8 stam enchant on your chest piece for +150 health.

And while upgrading a single +9 stam gem for a +12 stam gem doesn't seem big, if you do that for all your gear, that's quite an upgrade. It's expensive, but that's what a guildbank is for. =)
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Postby guillex » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:14 am

Daedricks wrote:
Phase 1:
-Spelldamage weapon.
-Remove SW:P off myself as quick as possible so healers can stay at max range
-JoW, SoR
-Spam holy shield

Phase 2:
-Switch to mitigation weapon (if you don't have a King's Defender or Suneater, even a Grom'tor's Charge is better than nothing)
-Use Ironshield Potions right before phase 2, and again when the CD is up
-JoL, SoR
-REALLY spam holy shield
-You should have plenty of threat by this phase, so have DPS burn all CDs/trinkets

Phase 3:
-Same as phase 1


Basically, Phase 2 Prince is a change for healers. They are used to be reactionary up until this point. For this fight they need to be spamming the heals on you nonstop. If you can survive through Phase 2 (which is a tank gear check and a DPS check) then Phase 3 is just about healer endurance.


Our phase 1 is a bit different, with one of 2 pallies (or whoever the healing advisor chooses) running in to cleanse the tank when SW:P comes up. That's just how we do it, as our MT is a prot warrior, and the guild isn't up to par with membership for a second group yet... So they won't let me change.

Phase 2 is a drain on healing. You're overhealing one second, then the next the tank is at 15% health ... with 3 healers spamming. It really does change for us. That's the time that I wish for my crits to come through, so I don't have to chug mana pots. The bad thing about this fight is that it's tough to run in to judge wisdom (for us anyways, as I'm not tanking yet), so we /can/ go OOM if we're not careful.
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Postby jere » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:15 am

Personally, with the infernal drops, the Prince fight is already a lottery. You are quite a bit farther off of uncrushable than you think:

19.51% dodge
16.68% parry
15.61% block
11.68% miss
30.00% holy shield
---------------
93.48%

For a lvl 70 mob, you are 6.52% away
For a lvl 73 mob (like prince) you are 8.92% away

Yeah, I realize that you have had good luck so far, but let me warn you, that there will be times when you drop like a rock from 3 crushes in a row, especially given your low HP's.

Personally I think you are not ready in terms of gear. I am not saying it can't be done, but your avoidance is too low and your HP's are too low given your lack of uncrushability. You can get lucky and still beat him, but you are just introducing luck to a fight that already depends on it.

You really should work towards the crest of shatar as your shield and the shoulders from botanica. You say you have bad luck with drops, and honestly, I hear ya. I had to run Botanica 30 times to get that shield. However, you are not exalted with Shatar yet, so I would suggest working towards that. In addition, you need to start working towards the libram. It is only 15 badges (3 heroic mech runs or 4 heroic underbog runs), so it is very cheap.

As far as how to approach prince:
Phase 1: Build threat as quickly as possible. Use JotC if you don't need mana (JoW otherwise).

Phase 2: When phase two hits, use JoL and SoL, pop your trinkets, and use Holy Shield, Consecrate, and Exorcism (if you need it at all).

Phase 3: Do as much damage as you can as quickly as you can. Judge JotC unless JoW is needed and unload on him. Make sure to pop AW again as it should be up by now.
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Postby Daedricks » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:25 am

Guillex wrote:Our phase 1 is a bit different, with one of 2 pallies (or whoever the healing advisor chooses) running in to cleanse the tank when SW:P comes up. That's just how we do it, as our MT is a prot warrior, and the guild isn't up to par with membership for a second group yet... So they won't let me change.

Phase 2 is a drain on healing. You're overhealing one second, then the next the tank is at 15% health ... with 3 healers spamming. It really does change for us. That's the time that I wish for my crits to come through, so I don't have to chug mana pots. The bad thing about this fight is that it's tough to run in to judge wisdom (for us anyways, as I'm not tanking yet), so we /can/ go OOM if we're not careful.


This is the advantage to having a paly tank Prince. Aside from not getting our shield charges eaten up, we can remove SW:P from ourselves. The healers can stay at max range and don't have to worry about shadow nova.
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Postby guillex » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:33 am

Daedricks wrote:
Guillex wrote:Our phase 1 is a bit different, with one of 2 pallies (or whoever the healing advisor chooses) running in to cleanse the tank when SW:P comes up. That's just how we do it, as our MT is a prot warrior, and the guild isn't up to par with membership for a second group yet... So they won't let me change.

Phase 2 is a drain on healing. You're overhealing one second, then the next the tank is at 15% health ... with 3 healers spamming. It really does change for us. That's the time that I wish for my crits to come through, so I don't have to chug mana pots. The bad thing about this fight is that it's tough to run in to judge wisdom (for us anyways, as I'm not tanking yet), so we /can/ go OOM if we're not careful.


This is the advantage to having a paly tank Prince. Aside from not getting our shield charges eaten up, we can remove SW:P from ourselves. The healers can stay at max range and don't have to worry about shadow nova.


I realise that ... Tell that to the rest of my guild ... lol!
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Postby Tanks-PL » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:43 am

As others said I think you need to run some 5-mans to improve your gear. Laj does drop the shoulders eventually, heck I got them on my second run, then got another to use for "dps" (+spell dmg gems), and a third dropped on my last run to make exalted which went to the pally healer.

Most frustrating to pick up was the Figurine of Colossos as I went into 3-4K revered running SH. Good thing is that SH is the easiest Pally tank instance as you can blow through there with an AOE group.
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Postby Tybalt » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:46 am

I've been hit 4 times in a row during phase two, and if you're not uncrushable, you're playing with fire. I realize you recognize your deficiencies regarding gear, but in all honesty, if you cannot reach the gear level required for the encounter it may be wise to let a warrior tank Prince until you are sufficiently geared. I'm not saying you can't do it, but between crushing blows and the infernals, you're opening your raid up to a lot of potential bad luck.

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Postby Freece » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:52 am

Thanks for the input so far. I appreciate the breakdown.

Daedricks wrote:Oh, also, switch that +8 stam enchant on your chest piece for +150 health.

And while upgrading a single +9 stam gem for a +12 stam gem doesn't seem big, if you do that for all your gear, that's quite an upgrade. It's expensive, but that's what a guildbank is for. =)


I'm slowly working towards getting +12 stam gems for every socket, and I'm not sure why I haven't done the health to chest enchant yet, I have a lot on my plate as far as gear tweaking goes.

jere wrote:Personally, with the infernal drops, the Prince fight is already a lottery. You are quite a bit farther off of uncrushable than you think:

19.51% dodge
16.68% parry
15.61% block
11.68% miss
30.00% holy shield
---------------
93.48%

For a lvl 70 mob, you are 6.52% away
For a lvl 73 mob (like prince) you are 8.92% away

Yeah, I realize that you have had good luck so far, but let me warn you, that there will be times when you drop like a rock from 3 crushes in a row, especially given your low HP's.

Personally I think you are not ready in terms of gear. I am not saying it can't be done, but your avoidance is too low and your HP's are too low given your lack of uncrushability. You can get lucky and still beat him, but you are just introducing luck to a fight that already depends on it.

You really should work towards the crest of shatar as your shield and the shoulders from botanica. You say you have bad luck with drops, and honestly, I hear ya. I had to run Botanica 30 times to get that shield. However, you are not exalted with Shatar yet, so I would suggest working towards that. In addition, you need to start working towards the libram. It is only 15 badges (3 heroic mech runs or 4 heroic underbog runs), so it is very cheap.

As far as how to approach prince:
Phase 1: Build threat as quickly as possible. Use JotC if you don't need mana (JoW otherwise).

Phase 2: When phase two hits, use JoL and SoL, pop your trinkets, and use Holy Shield, Consecrate, and Exorcism (if you need it at all).

Phase 3: Do as much damage as you can as quickly as you can. Judge JotC unless JoW is needed and unload on him. Make sure to pop AW again as it should be up by now.


This is pretty much what I'm looking for, I really appreciate taking a look at my gear. I know all too well the numbers aren't the greatest, and as you pointed out, I'm still a ways from uncrushable unbuffed. I can make up a little with raid buffs but I can't really argue the fine points when it's still an issue.

I know where the gear upgrades are, but my problem is that the people that are on outside of raid times are mostly exalted with sha'tar. Am I to force people to run botanica for the 90th time just so I can earn the right to MT for them? For now, I'm only realistically stuck with pugs which are dodgy anyways, but I'll live. Getting a heroic going more than once a month is a feat in and of itself, not for lack of desire, but not everyone is available that needs to be on non raid nights (including myself). Not sure I'm going to start pugging those just yet. It's probably worth pointing out that our guild is very small for a raiding guild, as far as active players goes. Also, the reason why there are a lot of people with way more rep than I in this guild is due to me coming late to the raid scene since I had to level from scratch while most of them were already 70. I -had- to tank KZ in sub par gear, since I was the only other tank that logged in for every raid.

I guess it just boils down to how much time you have to sink into getting the requisite gear. If I raid 4 nights a week, farming normal 5-mans outside of that is becoming more and more difficult.

Given the sombre review of my gear, the warrior tank isn't going to have much more fun either, though it seems that this fight is a good place for "oh shit" buttons. It seems like the rest of the guild has to wait around for the tanks to gear up before they can progress, which sucks. I think this is the only obstacle in our way right now.

Thanks for the input.
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Postby adese » Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:02 pm

Tybalt wrote:I've been hit 4 times in a row during phase two, and if you're not uncrushable, you're playing with fire. I realize you recognize your deficiencies regarding gear, but in all honesty, if you cannot reach the gear level required for the encounter it may be wise to let a warrior tank Prince until you are sufficiently geared. I'm not saying you can't do it, but between crushing blows and the infernals, you're opening your raid up to a lot of potential bad luck.

-Ty


I'll second the 4 hits in a row during phase 2...that can be just brutal. In my case, the main reason I noticed is that it took me out - I was hit for 3k, then shortly after something like 3k, 4k, 4k, 1k. I can't recall how much health I had at the time, but I know it looked like I was 1 shotted.

To second what everyone else said, you really need to be uncrushable in order to MT Prince. Don't forget about buffs, though - the first time I tanked him, I was only uncrushable with buffs. Agility is your friend in this case (Kings, GotW (if you have a druid), Elixir of Major Agility, and the Agility food (mudfish I think?)). I think that you can get 1-2% dodge just from agility buffs. Yeah, it'll hurt your stamina since you can't use a flask or stamina food, but in the long run you're much better off uncrushable against Prince than with 1-2k more HP.
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Postby Maruko_ » Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:07 pm

Freece wrote:I know where the gear upgrades are, but my problem is that the people that are on outside of raid times are mostly exalted with sha'tar. Am I to force people to run botanica for the 90th time just so I can earn the right to MT for them? ...

It seems like the rest of the guild has to wait around for the tanks to gear up before they can progress, which sucks. I think this is the only obstacle in our way right now.


The simple answer to your question is yes.
You've answered why right at the end there. It is in the rest of the guild's best interest to help you gear up if you are to be their MT. In my opinion they should be more than willing to run you through whatever instance you need even if they are exalted already, because it means more success for everyone come raid day. Not helping you is not only shooting themselves in the foot, but it's pretty damn selfish if you ask me.

Sorry if you think my view is a bit negative, but that's my 2c.
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Postby Glam » Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:43 pm

Maruko_ wrote:In my opinion they should be more than willing to run you through whatever instance you need even if they are exalted already, because it means more success for everyone come raid day. Not helping you is not only shooting themselves in the foot, but it's pretty damn selfish if you ask me.

100% Agree. If your guild wants to progress, then they need to be willing to help others. Period! End of Story!
Having said that, you can also PUG a few instances too. Pugging the TK instances for rep to get your shield is no big deal. Even if you are like me and hate Pugs. Whatever happens in there, it is all REP and that is your sole concern.
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Postby Rhaenys » Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:08 pm

I am in a similar situation as you Freece. I have similar health buffed, but am uncrushable. We have lots of problems in phase 2. I realized it was my health that was the issue, so i worked on my Shatar rep and started Engineering. I finally got my Sha'tar shield on Sun. and should have my engi googles by Fri to help with dodge and health.

We have had him to 8% once. Now our War is back from Vaca (yea shouts and TC), and our OT druid can respec to dps (yea swarm). So I am hoping to get him down this weekend.

For the Bot runs, my guildies made it into "AOE Bot" runs. they basically challenged me to keep aggro while the lock SoC's and mages try to pull everything. we had lots of fun doin it.
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