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Healers complaining about me taking too much damage

Attumen, Moroes, Maiden, Opera, Curator, Illhoof, Aran, Netherspite, Chess, Prince, Nightbane

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Postby Talmus » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:47 am

moduspwnens wrote:I think the general consensus is 2 points in PoJ is silly because Boar's Speed sacrifices 3 stamina for 8% run speed, so it's usually a better idea to just do that and use your talents elsewhere.


Yep, I just did the 2 points in PoJ so I could decide whether I wanted to do Boar's Speed or stick with 3/3 in PoJ. Couldn't stand the speed at 2/3 in my couple of days I tried it out and haven't given up the 3/3 since.
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Postby Talmus » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:52 am

uke wrote:Few quick comments:

1. Mobs in Kara do shadow damage? I honestly had no clue. Weird. :shock:

2. From what you're describing of your healer, sounds like she needs to step it up for raids. Raiding is 'big boy' time, you have to really be on your toes if you don't outgear it. If you're dying at 51% avoidance/16.5k armor/16k hp, and you're doing your part to not get crushed, then the problem is on the healer's end, plain and simple. Prince hits very hard and very fast, tell them to suck it up and deal with it.

3. Remind folks that unless the warriors forget to put thunderclap up, you are taking just as much damage as an equally geared warrior (less so on prince due to uncrushability, whereas a warrior will take some crushes during phase 2). If you're AOE tanking large trash mobs, of course you'll take more damage with more mobs beating on you. We can do what warrior's can't there.

In short, looks like your healers need to suck it up, and stop blaming their inability to raid-heal to "you're taking too much damage"


I think some of the problem here too is that it's easier to dump on the tank than it is to criticize a relatively new healer in Kara. Toss in that the new healer is also a new officer in the guild and that I'm an unguilded tank there as part of an alliance raid (where the other 9/10 people are in one specific guild) and it makes it even easier to say, "yo tank...you're too squishy". :)

I will take a little of the blame on the easy stuff though...I definitely downgrade my gear to push my healers when I'm confident they're not going to be able to let me die and especially on those pulls leading up to Midnight I go with some pretty squishy gear. Once we get to the real trash though I don't mess around like that.
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Postby Lookit » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:54 am

Talmus wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:I think the general consensus is 2 points in PoJ is silly because Boar's Speed sacrifices 3 stamina for 8% run speed, so it's usually a better idea to just do that and use your talents elsewhere.


Yep, I just did the 2 points in PoJ so I could decide whether I wanted to do Boar's Speed or stick with 3/3 in PoJ. Couldn't stand the speed at 2/3 in my couple of days I tried it out and haven't given up the 3/3 since.


I have 3/3 PoJ, and while it may not be the wisest talent from a tanking min/max perspective, it's definitely one of the talents that increases my enjoyment of the game the most. I cringe when playing my other characters because they feel so slow in comparison. Keep in mind that the 15% movement speed increases all movement, including flying and swimming. The increased chance to resist spells makes it a fairly solid tanking talent in my opinion as well.

Is it a must have talent? Of course not. But I'll definitely cry a little inside the day I give it up for something else.
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Postby solina » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:01 pm

Talmus wrote:First of all I don't have Spell Warding...I've tried to fit it in and I just can't bring myself to give up PoJ. I've ran 2 points PoJ before and couldn't put up with the speed on that so boar's isn't an option. I've got to have my 3/3 PoJ over spell warding and don't really want to drop anything else to get the Spell Warding in but that would definitely help a bit.


Personal preference, really.

Third, we don't have anyone on the raid to do Prayer of Shadow Protection and I'm almost positive that none of the pally's had on Shadow Resist aura. I'll get myself set up on one of the less important auras and switch to Shadow on those ghosts...anything else in Kara do shadow damage?


I can't think of another aura that would be useful for that particular fight, really. It's not as though auras have a cooldown.. you can switch them at-will in combat.. if you're so inclined, you can swap between fire and frost resist depending on what Shade is casting :D

Prince's Shadow Nova is, well, shadow damage.. so if you have a spare aura, I'd use it here. Not before Devo or Sanc though. Moroes's spriest is shadow damage, but she shouldn't be casting. Trash in Maiden's hallway mixes in shadow damage, and I think the seduce is based on shadow resist as well. It's not in overwhelming amounts.. but again, it's not like it costs you anything except a GCD to swap auras around.


Your overall assessment is probably right - L2Heal - but that doesn't mean there aren't things you can look at as well.
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Postby Talmus » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:02 pm

Lookit wrote:
Talmus wrote:
moduspwnens wrote:I think the general consensus is 2 points in PoJ is silly because Boar's Speed sacrifices 3 stamina for 8% run speed, so it's usually a better idea to just do that and use your talents elsewhere.


Yep, I just did the 2 points in PoJ so I could decide whether I wanted to do Boar's Speed or stick with 3/3 in PoJ. Couldn't stand the speed at 2/3 in my couple of days I tried it out and haven't given up the 3/3 since.


I have 3/3 PoJ, and while it may not be the wisest talent from a tanking min/max perspective, it's definitely one of the talents that increases my enjoyment of the game the most. I cringe when playing my other characters because they feel so slow in comparison. Keep in mind that the 15% movement speed increases all movement, including flying and swimming. The increased chance to resist spells makes it a fairly solid tanking talent in my opinion as well.

Is it a must have talent? Of course not. But I'll definitely cry a little inside the day I give it up for something else.


Exactly...from a min/max perspective I should probably have spell warding 2/2 and the other point somewhere else (2/2 imp. judgments perhaps). But darnit, they'll have to pry PoJ 3/3 out of my cold dead hands. :lol:
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Postby Talmus » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:07 pm

solina wrote:I can't think of another aura that would be useful for that particular fight, really. It's not as though auras have a cooldown.. you can switch them at-will in combat.. if you're so inclined, you can swap between fire and frost resist depending on what Shade is casting :D

Prince's Shadow Nova is, well, shadow damage.. so if you have a spare aura, I'd use it here. Not before Devo or Sanc though. Moroes's spriest is shadow damage, but she shouldn't be casting. Trash in Maiden's hallway mixes in shadow damage, and I think the seduce is based on shadow resist as well. It's not in overwhelming amounts.. but again, it's not like it costs you anything except a GCD to swap auras around.


Your overall assessment is probably right - L2Heal - but that doesn't mean there aren't things you can look at as well.


Ah, so the different shades do different spells? I'm always so focused on my rotation, positioning, and agro that I don't really worry about what type of damage I'm taking. I've usually got 3 paladins in my group...should we run shadow/frost/fire on the shades? Sounds like there's no physical damage so no reason not to go there. On Prince though we DO run shadow/fire/devo...just never did it for the shades.

As for my assessment...that's why I'm posting here. It's easier to point the fingers and say, "it's not my fault"...but that doesn't make you any better as a player. I'm not overly experienced (only a handful of heroics and 4 trips to Kara) and even if I was, you can always learn new tricks.
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Postby solina » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:22 pm

Talmus wrote:Ah, so the different shades do different spells? I'm always so focused on my rotation, positioning, and agro that I don't really worry about what type of damage I'm taking. I've usually got 3 paladins in my group...should we run shadow/frost/fire on the shades? Sounds like there's no physical damage so no reason not to go there. On Prince though we DO run shadow/fire/devo...just never did it for the shades.


Oops, I meant Shade, as in Shade of Aran. But yes, the Spell Shades and Sorcerous Shades can do Frost, Fire, or Shadow: http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=16525#abilities, http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=16526#abilities. They always seemed predisposed to Shadow for me so I keep SR or have the Prayer.
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Postby Talmus » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:26 pm

solina wrote:
Talmus wrote:Ah, so the different shades do different spells? I'm always so focused on my rotation, positioning, and agro that I don't really worry about what type of damage I'm taking. I've usually got 3 paladins in my group...should we run shadow/frost/fire on the shades? Sounds like there's no physical damage so no reason not to go there. On Prince though we DO run shadow/fire/devo...just never did it for the shades.


Oops, I meant Shade, as in Shade of Aran. But yes, the Spell Shades and Sorcerous Shades can do Frost, Fire, or Shadow: http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=16525#abilities, http://www.wowhead.com/?npc=16526#abilities. They always seemed predisposed to Shadow for me so I keep SR or have the Prayer.


Yeah, Aran's another fight we should probably drop Devo and just run frost/fire/shadow since we have 3 pally's in the group. Not that we've ever had a problem on Aran...only time we wiped there was when we had a PuG player that didn't have Boss Mod and our person calling out flame wreath swallowed a bug or something and couldn't talk when the wreath hit.
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Postby solina » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:44 pm

Talmus wrote:Yeah, Aran's another fight we should probably drop Devo and just run frost/fire/shadow since we have 3 pally's in the group. Not that we've ever had a problem on Aran...only time we wiped there was when we had a PuG player that didn't have Boss Mod and our person calling out flame wreath swallowed a bug or something and couldn't talk when the wreath hit.


Shade is Frost/Fire/Arcane.. and nothing you can do about the Arcane. May as well use Conc.
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Postby Kelaan » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:29 pm

Talmus wrote:
uke wrote:.... In short, looks like your healers need to suck it up, and stop blaming their inability to raid-heal to "you're taking too much damage"


I think some of the problem here too is that it's easier to dump on the tank than it is to criticize a relatively new healer in Kara. Toss in that the new healer is also a new officer in the guild and that I'm an unguilded tank there as part of an alliance raid (where the other 9/10 people are in one specific guild) and it makes it even easier to say, "yo tank...you're too squishy". :)


Honestly, I think this is something that needs addressing Right Away the next time you go to raid with them. Talk to the healing leader and say, "Can you watch Healadynne? She doesn't appear to be proactively healing, which I suspect is why LeafyHeals is having to work harder to heal me. Unless our warrior isn't having Thunderclap and demo shout on my target, there shouldn't be a substantial difference in our damage mitigation."

{Edit: Try keeping a WWS or combat log and looking at timelines after you enter combat -- time between you first taking damage and your first heal landing can tell a lot. If you're code oriented, you could try writing a tool to do this, even.}

If they are skeptical, ask them to put her on healing the warrior tank. If they don't want to, find out why -- they probably realize that she is a weaker (or less experienced) healer.

You might also consider going on a heroic repair run (er, that's me being overly cynical ;)) with this new healer -- via specific invitation -- and see how she heals there. That might be a time that you can say, "if you pre-cast your heals so that they are already landing when I've taken the Big Chunk of damage, it will really increase my lifespan and your healing effectiveness."

Someone that waits until you've taken 4k damage to start casting Holy Light is going tohave a healer-tank relationship similar to a pre-caster healing a tank with 4k less health. Healers can tell the difference between a 10k health tank and a 14k health tank (I hope) -- point that out as well.

I think that the more experience she gets healing in raids and heroics for her guildmates, the better she will get. I expect that if her healing lead (or paladin healing lead?) actually KNOWS she has problems, it'll go a long way to getting them fixed via education.
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Postby Talmus » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:37 pm

Kelaan wrote:
Talmus wrote:
uke wrote:.... In short, looks like your healers need to suck it up, and stop blaming their inability to raid-heal to "you're taking too much damage"


I think some of the problem here too is that it's easier to dump on the tank than it is to criticize a relatively new healer in Kara. Toss in that the new healer is also a new officer in the guild and that I'm an unguilded tank there as part of an alliance raid (where the other 9/10 people are in one specific guild) and it makes it even easier to say, "yo tank...you're too squishy". :)


Honestly, I think this is something that needs addressing Right Away the next time you go to raid with them. Talk to the healing leader and say, "Can you watch Healadynne? She doesn't appear to be proactively healing, which I suspect is why LeafyHeals is having to work harder to heal me. Unless our warrior isn't having Thunderclap and demo shout on my target, there shouldn't be a substantial difference in our damage mitigation."

If they are skeptical, ask them to put her on healing the warrior tank. If they don't want to, find out why -- they probably realize that she is a weaker (or less experienced) healer.

You might also consider going on a heroic repair run (er, that's me being overly cynical ;)) with this new healer -- via specific invitation -- and see how she heals there. That might be a time that you can say, "if you pre-cast your heals so that they are already landing when I've taken the Big Chunk of damage, it will really increase my lifespan and your healing effectiveness."

Someone that waits until you've taken 4k damage to start casting Holy Light is going tohave a healer-tank relationship similar to a pre-caster healing a tank with 4k less health. Healers can tell the difference between a 10k health tank and a 14k health tank (I hope) -- point that out as well.

I think that the more experience she gets healing in raids and heroics for her guildmates, the better she will get. I expect that if her healing lead (or paladin healing lead?) actually KNOWS she has problems, it'll go a long way to getting them fixed via education.


Yeah, and honestly she's only been in Kara twice to my knowledge and was undergeared at first - a couple Kara runs and I'd assume some heroics in between have fixed that issue though. If I had to guess I'd say she's too shy about using pots and when mana gets tight she conserves instead of being pro-active with the pots. If she's being told 'use a pot now' in vent on Prince then there's definitely a reluctance to use pots there. I mean, I'm dirt poor (casual gamer that basically only has time to raid and do a few groups a week) but I drink pots like they're water. But again, I'm in an awkward position with this being a 90% guild group and me being the odd man out that I don't want to rock the boat too much and step on any toes.

I'm definitely considering trying to get the uberpally healer on me tonight. I'm thinking about accomplishing this by asking to aoe the stuff up to Midnight...honestly there's no reason to split tank that junk and that kills two birds with one stone - I won't be mana starved there anymore and I'll be getting all the heals which hopefully gets me with the main pally on me after that first part. Heck, I've got the gear for it...I'd love to do Midnight/Attuneman both too. Maybe I won't have to drink so many pots then! Have to see if I can get them to let me MT Moroes as well with 1 or 2 of his adds on me.
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Postby Cosmoz » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:15 pm

run with 2 healers instead of 3-4. more dps, shorter fight. it might be easier, I tell you. with your amount of armor, witch is a LOT compared to your HP, you should be more then fine. your gear is fine, and if 3-4 healers cant keep you up at prince, you are either doing something wrong, or your healers (all of them) realy suck, OR you have 2 tanks, 3-4 healers and your dps suck and cant get true p2. I did bet the last alt is your problem. to many tanks/healers and to feew dps.
I always run kara with 7 dps at least. 8 dps if I wanna push it. (1 tank, 1-2 healers)
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Postby Talmus » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:44 am

Cosmoz wrote:run with 2 healers instead of 3-4. more dps, shorter fight. it might be easier, I tell you. with your amount of armor, witch is a LOT compared to your HP, you should be more then fine. your gear is fine, and if 3-4 healers cant keep you up at prince, you are either doing something wrong, or your healers (all of them) realy suck, OR you have 2 tanks, 3-4 healers and your dps suck and cant get true p2. I did bet the last alt is your problem. to many tanks/healers and to feew dps.
I always run kara with 7 dps at least. 8 dps if I wanna push it. (1 tank, 1-2 healers)


You're dead on here. We run 3 healers (pally/pally/druid), 2 tanks (me/warrior), a very good mage, a good dps warrior, and then usually a hunter, warlock, and one other dps. Not really going to change as this is a set team but I hear you and completely agree. If you treat the trash pulls as a boss fight, have all healers (or one very good healer) on a paladin tank and aoe everything I think Kara would go much smoother and much faster. We clear the place but we do it in two nights and a combined 5 hours or so. Our dps is really low as a raid and I think that's a major factor in the number of Prince wipes that we have. Give that monkey enough quality time with a typewriter and he's going to manage to bang out Shakespeare on your skull.
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