Healers complaining about me taking too much damage

Attumen, Moroes, Maiden, Opera, Curator, Illhoof, Aran, Netherspite, Chess, Prince, Nightbane

Moderators: Fridmarr, Worldie, Aergis

Healers complaining about me taking too much damage

Postby Talmus » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:41 am

I'm logged out in one of my many alternate sets right now (this one for the consecration mana reduction set bonus) but here's the situation...

Normally on trash pulls I run in what I have on the armory right now or even a little less - 14k+ armor, 12.5k+ hp unbuffed, and uncrittable though not uncrushable (which means I'll eat some normal, unblocked hits). I can be anywhere from 35'ish avoidance to 47'ish depending on whether I'm trying to ease the burden on the healers or build mana for myself/threat for the raid.

My first question - should a well geared healer be having any trouble keeping me up and running on trash pulls with me wearing this gear? We're running two tanks and splitting the pulls so normally I've got 2 things on me at worst. I'm removing avoidance at points because I'm not getting enough healing to keep up my normal rotation and then I'm getting complaints from the healing leader that 'you're harder to heal' and that our paladin healer dedicated to healing me 'can't keep up'.

Given my gear level and the fact that I'm trying to keep threat off of a mage that can do well over 1k dps do I ignore the healing leader? My gear is obviously good enough on these trash pulls in the armor and hp areas that 35% avoidance should be enough and I normally run much higher than that (the threat set I'm wearing at the moment, my 'trash avoid set' has 47% avoidance)?

The Prince fight was even worse. I tried it in two different gear sets. The first set had me uncrush/uncrit with 44% avoidance and 17k armor/hp buffed. I ate no crushing blows and while we did get Prince to 1% there were quite a few close calls. The healers said they were having a hard time healing though so I switched to 51% avoidance/16.5k armor/16k hp and died even faster while again not eating a single crushing blow.

I guess this entire thread boils down to one question - is this a healing issue or is there something wrong with my gear? I'm thinking we've got a healing issue if I'm dying to Prince with 17k armor/hp, uncrush/uncrit, and 44% avoid (or especially with 16k+ armor/hp, uncrush/uncrit, and well over 50% avoid) but the healing leader seems convinced that I'm too 'squishy' to tank things. Of course our less geared warrior shines when he takes on the main tank duties...I slap on 1200 +healing worth of gear and use every trinket/pot/trick to make sure he stays up which basically gives us a 4th undergeared but determined healer. I'm tempted at times to just dps (which is actually what they ask me to do since the healers are extremely confident that they don't need help) but I'd rather avert a wipe than prove a point.
Talmus
 
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:35 pm

Postby ulushnar » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:59 am

If the stats you're mentioning are accurate, then you're at the fine line of effective health needed to tank the Prince. I was at that level when we first kileld him. Sometimes we'd one-shot him and sometimes it'd be 4-5 shots.

Your healers do have to be on the ball because with his thrash in phase 2, he can do 12k damage in an eyeblink. The tank will basically need spam healing throughout phase two and you'll have to hope for no awkward infernals. This is true of any tank at your gear level. If you drop below 12k at any point in phase 2, you're dicing with death. Taking an Ironshield Potion or two can really help here.

On the plus side, once you've got more badge gear under your belt, the fight will become much more manageable.
Be careful when you argue with trolls, lest you become one.
User avatar
ulushnar
Maintankadonor
 
Posts: 5442
Joined: Mon May 28, 2007 6:56 am
Location: Bollocks, Scotland

Postby Talmus » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:05 am

Ulushnar wrote:If the stats you're mentioning are accurate, then you're at the fine line of effective health needed to tank the Prince. I was at that level when we first kileld him. Sometimes we'd one-shot him and sometimes it'd be 4-5 shots.

Your healers do have to be on the ball because with his thrash in phase 2, he can do 12k damage in an eyeblink. The tank will basically need spam healing throughout phase two and you'll have to hope for no awkward infernals. This is true of any tank at your gear level. If you drop below 12k at any point in phase 2, you're dicing with death.

On the plus side, once you've got more badge gear under your belt, the fight will become much more manageable.


Ahh, so 17k buffed hp's is tight on that? Would you rather run with more avoidance there or with the extra 1k hp?

Also, even if I outgear the warrior I think that now that I have a decent healing set we're probably better off with 4 people healing. Still think something's a bit off with the healing if they feel like I'm too squishy on the trash pulls but if my EH is a bit tight on Prince with 17k hp/armor and 44'ish avoidance then I'll just let the warrior do it so we can have an extra healer.
Talmus
 
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:35 pm

Postby Mordinm » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:13 am

It's a healing issue. With 17k armor and life and 44% advoiance you are over geared for prince. If 3 healers can't keep you up there is something very, very wrong with your healers. My first prince kills were with 2 kara geared healers and I had about 14k health buffed and 16k armor or so.
Mordinm
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:58 am

Postby moduspwnens » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:20 am

Just be 100% Holy Shield is up at all times. If you're taking crushing blows, something's wrong on your end.
I rule.
moduspwnens
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Shattered Hand

Postby Talmus » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:43 am

moduspwnens wrote:Just be 100% Holy Shield is up at all times. If you're taking crushing blows, something's wrong on your end.


Nope, no crushing blows taken on any of the fights.
Talmus
 
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:35 pm

Postby Requinix » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:45 am

Did you say you were having trouble on trash as well?

You said you normally pull 2 at a time.. Are we talking 2x Vallets, stewards?

The mechanics of some of the trash mob will tear you up even in good gear. (stuning)
Image

Image
Requinix
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Aggramar

Postby Talmus » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:06 am

Requinix wrote:Did you say you were having trouble on trash as well?

You said you normally pull 2 at a time.. Are we talking 2x Vallets, stewards?

The mechanics of some of the trash mob will tear you up even in good gear. (stuning)


I think the main place I get the complaints is on the part with those ghost looking guys that disappear where there are packs of 4. We split them 2 on the warrior and 2 on me...have a very good paladin healer on the warrior and a decently geared paladin healer on me with a druid doing raid heals (druid is our heals leader). The druid says she has to help out on me all the time on those pulls but not on the warrior. She also complains right in the entrance on the way to Midnight but I'm doing that on purpose...that trash just doesn't hit that hard and I'm going to make them work so we can get through that as quickly as possible and wake people up. But yeah, I've actually died once or twice on those ghost guys in about 4 trips into Kara and that's when wearing an uncrittable armor set with pretty good avoidance and about 15.5k buffed hp's.

The funniest part is that she's complaining that I'm taking more healing than I used to take and I have higher avoidance, armor, and hp's than I used to have. The healer assigned to me DID change though (they brought in a new healer). She seems well enough geared to be doing it but sometimes I wonder. I know that during the Prince fight the healing leader is having to tell her when to use a mana pot. On a progression fight (which this is for about half of the raid) shouldn't you be popping a pot the moment you're down enough mana to get the full effect? I know that on Phase 1 and Phase 3 that unless we get a bad infernal placement I'm popping a pot every CD. I actually kind of look forward to Phase 2 if the heals come in...at least I don't run out of mana anymore. :p
Talmus
 
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:35 pm

Postby Mordinm » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:32 am

The ghosts do magic damage. Do you have spell warding and PoJ? Does the warrior have improved defensive stance? Who's mobs gets taken down first and do you have rogues cheap shotting or kindey shotting those mobs and is anyone stopping their spell casting?

Armor and physical avoidance do very little against the ghost packs and having dps on the warriors first makes a big difference. Even Impact and Blackout can stop a cast reduce damage by quite a bit.
Mordinm
 
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:58 am

Postby Kelaan » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:45 am

Wow. {Apologies in advance for wrting so much ;)}

I don't /think/ I have much better gear than you, as I was only to 16k-ish health with a warlock last night. It was my first time tanking the latter half (nightbane through prince) of Karazhan, and it just seemed like easy-mode. I even ended up tanking all 4 of those ghost things at the same time, and it worked out. {Spell resistance, and 4 shamans probably helped there ;)}

I suspect it's not due to me being an awesome tank (I wish!) but due to having excellent healers, who were almost certianly somewhat overgeared. Well, I think the priest was, at least. (We had a priest + druid healer.) Several of the people seemed to be alts.

If your druid healer is complaining about you taking more damage now, when you have better gear, then the possibilities are:

1 - You *are* taking more damage. Remember to be careful of positioning and keep holy shield up, even rank 1.

2 - She sucks as a healer, or is being lazy. I got the impression though that she was the veteran and someone else was the new healer.

3 - Your new healer is not healing well, and thus the druid perceives more healing that needs to be done -- as she's having to pick up more of his slack. Make sure that new healer is healing PROACTIVELY, and not reactively.

I'd say keep the gear ON to satisfy your healing leader -- as happy healers make tanks look awesome.

Try talking to your mage privately and say, "Hey, I'm having a real hard time keeping up with your threat without gimping my defensive gear so much that the healers aren't happy. Can you throttle your damage a bit more, or maybe just wait a bit before going nuke-happy?" Ask your mage to WAIT on the DPS, and nuke down your first target a bit before starting on AOE. He is salved, right? :) If he continues to pull, tell him in the raid that you might consider letting him die, or at least wait until things are just about on him before taunting off of him. Still, asking nicely before the raid (and if he forgets mid-raid) can probably get more results.

Like you, my trash (and tanking) sets all have almost 50% avoidance ... though I could swap things a bit to get more spelldamage. Still, front loaded damage (and chain pulls ;)) can help your mage stay less of a spaz. Many DPS classes want to push the envelope as much as possible -- as faster kills mean less time to clear.

I'd also caution against 4 healers -- the more healers you have, the less DPS you have, and the longer the fight will last (requiring more healing on you overall, etc). "Moar DPS" sounds like a cop-out, but it really is a solution on many levels. I know that personally, my threat/second seems to really spike at the beginning, and then tapers off a little bit as time goes on -- the shorter your fights, the easier it is to keep a threat lead on your DPS. ;) More DPS lets all of them nuke harder, kill things faster, etc, and lead to less healing required from the healers. (Hybrid DPS that can toss a chain heal or HoT people up is also very handy.)
User avatar
Kelaan
 
Posts: 4037
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:01 pm

Postby solina » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:12 am

Talmus wrote:[I think the main place I get the complaints is on the part with those ghost looking guys that disappear where there are packs of 4.


100% shadow damage; your avoidance and mitigation don't help you here. This could turn into a Spell Warding vs. Pursuit of Justice debate.. personally I prefer Spell Warding to guarantee the reduction of damage on every hit. Pursuit of Justice should average to 1% less damage taken (offset by the maneuvarability of the movement speed, I suppose), but over the course of a fight might forget to proc at all.

Make sure you got Prayer of Shadow Protection on you too (or, if not, Shadow Resist aura). I tank all 4 of these guys with similar stats to you (~16.5k buffed HP) and no special resist gear, just SW and Prayer of Shadow Protect, and the only time my healers complain is when they have LOS issues with the ramp...
Image
Image
solina
 
Posts: 374
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:24 pm

Postby Worldie » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:50 am

Talmus wrote:Ahh, so 17k buffed hp's is tight on that? Would you rather run with more avoidance there or with the extra 1k hp?


Image

Enough said. This was back in July of last year, t4 raid.

If your gear is on par with other tanks there's no reason with same buffs-debuffs to be taking more damage.
theckhd wrote:Fuck no, we've seen what you do to guilds. Just imagine what you could do to an entire country. Just visiting the US might be enough to make the southern states try to secede again.

halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
User avatar
Worldie
Global Mod
 
Posts: 13648
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:49 pm
Location: Italy

Postby Talmus » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:32 am

Great input everyone and I think I see some problems, some fixable, some not.

First of all I don't have Spell Warding...I've tried to fit it in and I just can't bring myself to give up PoJ. I've ran 2 points PoJ before and couldn't put up with the speed on that so boar's isn't an option. I've got to have my 3/3 PoJ over spell warding and don't really want to drop anything else to get the Spell Warding in but that would definitely help a bit.

Second, I think the new healer isn't used to raid healing and that she's more of a casually-minded person. I'll throttle back on my dropping gear on the easy parts so as not to stress her out but not a lot can be done on the harder fights other than hoping she steps up and heals more consistently so as not to need so much help.

Third, we don't have anyone on the raid to do Prayer of Shadow Protection and I'm almost positive that none of the pally's had on Shadow Resist aura. I'll get myself set up on one of the less important auras and switch to Shadow on those ghosts...anything else in Kara do shadow damage? That wouldn't be a reason for me to be taking *more* damage but it sure as heck would make me take less. Also, I've got a green plate 'of shadow resist' breastplate. Obviously I'd lose a lot of hp's on my Panz'thar but is it worth swapping it out for that fight?

The mage...he's not an issue. We've both got Omen2 and he's never...not once...pulled threat from me. He's just very, very good at what he does. That said, I know that he's threat-capped on a lot of fights and anything I can do to help raise threat level is going to help us do more damage. Honestly, I can't rave about this guy enough. He lets me know occasionally when he's NOT threat capped too...never complains when he is and raves when he's not. Love that guy!

So from what I'm hearing it's probably the new healer. It may be a confidence issue too so I'm going to have to cut it out with pushing the envelope on the easy trash...if anything it's worth popping some pots early on while running uncrushable and 52% avoidance to help build her confidence in healing by herself. I think she may be using the druid as a crutch too much and getting comfortable having a safety net there which doesn't fly once we reach Prince. And honestly, while we 1-shot Prince with the Warrior once I started healing I'm doing the same thing there...I'm giving the healers a safety net that could hurt us in the long run. It's time to cut the net and dps on that fight. And I need to figure out what mobs do shadow damage and pump up the resists on those fights...that could be a huge part of why the raid has so much trouble with those fights.

Oh, and I didn't answer this but my mobs always die second...I'm the OT but we basically dual-tank the entire zone and take the bosses on a 'who's better for this mob' basis...but I'm definitely the one holding the mobs longer and hence the one that's going to take more damage.
Talmus
 
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:35 pm

Postby moduspwnens » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:37 am

I think the general consensus is 2 points in PoJ is silly because Boar's Speed sacrifices 3 stamina for 8% run speed, so it's usually a better idea to just do that and use your talents elsewhere.
I rule.
moduspwnens
Moderator
 
Posts: 6211
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:28 pm
Location: Shattered Hand

Postby uke » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:44 am

Few quick comments:

1. Mobs in Kara do shadow damage? I honestly had no clue. Weird. :shock:

2. From what you're describing of your healer, sounds like she needs to step it up for raids. Raiding is 'big boy' time, you have to really be on your toes if you don't outgear it. If you're dying at 51% avoidance/16.5k armor/16k hp, and you're doing your part to not get crushed, then the problem is on the healer's end, plain and simple. Prince hits very hard and very fast, tell them to suck it up and deal with it.

3. Remind folks that unless the warriors forget to put thunderclap up, you are taking just as much damage as an equally geared warrior (less so on prince due to uncrushability, whereas a warrior will take some crushes during phase 2). If you're AOE tanking large trash mobs, of course you'll take more damage with more mobs beating on you. We can do what warrior's can't there.

In short, looks like your healers need to suck it up, and stop blaming their inability to raid-heal to "you're taking too much damage"
uke
 
Posts: 1957
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:23 am

Next

Return to Karazhan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Who is online

In total there is 1 user online :: 0 registered, 0 hidden and 1 guest (based on users active over the past 5 minutes)
Most users ever online was 380 on Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:28 pm

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest