Heroic Botanica, trouble with Thorngrin

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Heroic Botanica, trouble with Thorngrin

Postby Talwen » Wed May 21, 2008 9:11 am

Hi all, and thanks for all the great guides and advice from this site. I'm a relatively new 70, just joined a Kara group and have been off-tanking there with no major issues. This week I started trying heroics, although I know my gear may be a bit marginal.

My holy pally friend brought me in for a Heroic Botanica run for my first Heroic. I was tanking, him healing (he's both very well geared and quite experienced), a rogue, lock, and fury warrior for DPS. All the DPS were great about using their abilities to reduce incoming damage on me (CoW, sap, stunlock, etc.), and the trash pulls were a bit stressful but no real problem. Even the bosses were actually just fine--except the demon, Thorngrin.

I picked up Thorngrin at the beginning, no problems until the first Hellfire, but right after that he goes for the warrior, starts pounding him to pieces. I taunt (no resist message, but also no little red taunt ticks above Thorngrin's head), but instead of coming to me Thorngrin proceeds to kill the lock--meanwhile, I'm exorcising, judging righteousness, all to no avail. I just couldn't seem to get him back. Once I did get him, the rogue and the warrior eventually died to Hellfires, and the holy pally managed to keep me alive till about 1%, then killed Thorngrin with Hammer of Wrath once everyone else died. He's my new hero.

Basically, I'm wondering what I can do next time to keep this from happening again--I wasn't generally having trouble keeping aggro on bosses in there, but this guy was the exception. Any thoughts? Also, should I be trying to run out of the Hellfire to reduce the healing needed, or staying in to build more threat by pounding on him?
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Postby Nobot » Wed May 21, 2008 9:20 am

He can be hard to kill. If you're running out of the hellfire while everyone else is still DPS'ing, it might be hard to catch up to their aggro. If this is the case, stay in melee through the hellfire.

Otherwise, taunt and BoP are the only thing that can save you.
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Postby Lookit » Wed May 21, 2008 9:22 am

His Hellfire is also an aggro dump, so losing aggro on this fight is to be expected. Normally, the solution is to just taunt him when he goes for someone else, and it sounds like you simply had bad luck with failed taunts. I've been having issues with taunt simply not doing anything (but still triggering the cooldown) lately myself, so I don't know if it's a newish bug or what.

The other option is to BoP the bosses target, which works just as well, albeit on a slightly longer cooldown. Regarding staying in the hellfire or not, if I have a good healer I will stay in so that I have less chance of losing aggro. If I'm worried about the healer having any trouble keeping everyone up, or if the healer is sacrificed, I'll just run out and hit him with an AS and Exorcism after he finishes the hellfire (no sense using burst aggro moves right before he reduces your aggro - better to wait and hit him with both right after)

And FR aura for sure on this fight.
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Postby Shirak » Wed May 21, 2008 9:23 am

I always salv my DPS in heroics.

On this first I make sure I judge crusader and then get up a 5 stack of vengeance. Then when he wipes aggro I have exorcism and vengeance staking to build aggro and get him back.

Also make sure when he goes after another party member they need to "Do their Part" to drop or reduce their aggro to let you get him back.
Tuberon wrote:Tanking *is* crowd control.

You run into a crowd, and proceed to control it.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Wed May 21, 2008 9:46 am

Both hellfire and sacrifice seem to be aggro dumps, this is what you do
1: Get smart dps. They have to let you catch thorngrin back
2: Save your cooldowns. Put consecrate under him at all times, save exorcism and avenger's shield for the aggro drops. Judgment if those are on CD.

Your taunt issue was probably just bad luck, he swapped targets and the taunt was wasted.
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Re: Heroic Botanica, trouble with Thorngrin

Postby ldeboer » Wed May 21, 2008 7:40 pm

The problems usually are dumb dps, not understanding our taunt mechanics and execution.

As you probably now understand when he hellfires it is a complete agro table reset at the moment the hellfire stops. When table resets first thing to hit him or closest person gets agro.

Make sure the dps know to stop during the hellfire the melee should be running anyhow its usually the dumb range that don't stop. It you have a lock or shadow priest they are going to get agro cause they will have dotted him they need to know to be ready for it. I personally prefer and ask for locks and spriests not to dot him.

Assuming your dps know to stop you can taunt him if he goes to go for them. You know the mechanics of our taunt RD it's on that person not the boss so if some other gumby hits it harder now and pulls it your taunt is in CD and they are going to die unless you can bubble them which is prob on CD cause you used wings at start. So if dps dont stop during hellfire someone is going to die.

Assuming your dps are not complete retards you stay in during hellfire (with your fire resist aura up) pot or use healthstone to help healer out.
You dont have to worry about agro he cant move and table is about to reset.

During hellfire make sure you know what you are going to use to hit him with. Have your choice of judgement loaded and ready or exocism if its not on CD. The moment the hellfire stops and he even twitches to move use that move.

That's it kill him ...

Unfortunately this fight is alot about dps doing right things if you have retarded dps you are going to struggle.

If your healer can't heal thru hellfire you can move you dont have to get out of animation its way bigger than the actual range of the hellfire roughly about half what it shows on screen.

BTW your fight I can explain

<I picked up Thorngrin at the beginning, no problems until the first Hellfire, but right after that he goes for the warrior, starts pounding him to pieces.>

Warrior has hamstrung him or put a bleed effect on he got 1st agro
You now taunt

<I taunt (no resist message, but also no little red taunt ticks above Thorngrin's head),>

Your taunt hit he is in one of his set combo moves (about 2secs) he will come to you next.

<but instead of coming to me Thorngrin proceeds to kill the lock->
Locks dot has hit or he has now started dps your RD was on warrior not lock who just got agro.

<meanwhile, I'm exorcising, judging righteousness, all to no avail. I just couldn't seem to get him back>
Lock has begun dps and you cant get agro lead to pull him back
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Postby Tandors » Sun May 25, 2008 8:55 am

Lookit wrote:His Hellfire is also an aggro dump, so losing aggro on this fight is to be expected. Normally, the solution is to just taunt him when he goes for someone else, and it sounds like you simply had bad luck with failed taunts. I've been having issues with taunt simply not doing anything (but still triggering the cooldown) lately myself, so I don't know if it's a newish bug or what.

The other option is to BoP the bosses target, which works just as well, albeit on a slightly longer cooldown. Regarding staying in the hellfire or not, if I have a good healer I will stay in so that I have less chance of losing aggro. If I'm worried about the healer having any trouble keeping everyone up, or if the healer is sacrificed, I'll just run out and hit him with an AS and Exorcism after he finishes the hellfire (no sense using burst aggro moves right before he reduces your aggro - better to wait and hit him with both right after)

And FR aura for sure on this fight.



I think its his sacrifice move that drops the aggro. I usually save Avengers Shield and Exorcism just for right after he does that move. If all else fails just tell your DPS to stop DPSing while he's casting it.
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Agro drop only on hellfire

Postby ldeboer » Sun May 25, 2008 9:34 pm

Tandors wrote:I think its his sacrifice move that drops the aggro. I usually save Avengers Shield and Exorcism just for right after he does that move. If all else fails just tell your DPS to stop DPSing while he's casting it.


Nope it's after the hellfire he maintains agro through the sacrafice I did this instance a huge number of times trying to get my dam shoulders from laj and getting badges at the same time.

http://www.wowwiki.com/Thorngrin_the_Tender

will confirm what I am telling you
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Postby arilink » Sun May 25, 2008 10:10 pm

I am sorry to say but my experience on like 20 heroic botanica runs breaks down to:
Sacrifice - Aggro table wiped.
Hellfire - Nothing.

If your DPS is overnuking while you are running out of hellfire that is stupidity but not an aggro wipe.
Same goes for your DPS overnuking on sacrifice. It is not very hard to stop smashing buttons for ~2 seconds.
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Postby ldeboer » Mon May 26, 2008 1:21 am

arilink wrote:I am sorry to say but my experience on like 20 heroic botanica runs breaks down to:
Sacrifice - Aggro table wiped.
Hellfire - Nothing.

If your DPS is overnuking while you are running out of hellfire that is stupidity but not an aggro wipe.
Same goes for your DPS overnuking on sacrifice. It is not very hard to stop smashing buttons for ~2 seconds.


Never ever do I run out of hellfire to much HP to worry about that.. I am willing to conceed sacrafice may dump agro but given I am sitting there whacking the hell out of him I haven't noticed.

Never seen him actually run towards anyone until after hellfire in general to me sacrafice is he like targets someone and then focus turns back to me he never moves during it.
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Postby steellynx » Tue May 27, 2008 7:48 am

you might tank him "easy mode" to avoid dps-threat issues :)

i hope it will be understandable though ...


have all your dps positioned up the ramp where you came from. once you entered the room with the sunseeker channelers, theres a ramp going down left and right towards thorogrin. take the right one, because above this ramp is a small shelf, where your dps will be sitting at the start of the fight. you will be under them, but be sure to keep thorogrin just far away enough not to burn your group in the hellfire. i'm not sure, if the hellfire reaches so high, but i wouldn't risk it anyway. your healer stands between you and the sacrified.

pull the boss, build up thread. let your dps do whatever they want to, the might go nuts throwing all they got on thorogrin.

you should hold aggro until the first hellfire. after this, you won't have to do much. eventually, dps will pull aggro an thorogrin will run towards them. note, he will first run up the ramp and then back towards the dps. this is the time, the targetted person jumps down towards you. thorogrin turns round, runs back, down the ramp towards you and your mate. taunt him and repeat. of course, sacrified players and those who pulled aggro have to run back to their places. but they won't do this very often, as thorogrin doesn't have much hp.

the only tricky thing is, when you got melee dps with you. they must not pull aggro. in fact, if it's just one rogue or warrior, you might even assign him to ranged combat duty, as the fight won't be hard at all. this way you might kill him with 3 people, easily.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue May 27, 2008 7:58 am

People say it's either after hellfier or after sacrifice. It's blurry for me and I simply assume it's both. Can't go wrong, and we have 3 cooldowns to burn anyway.
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Postby steellynx » Tue May 27, 2008 8:06 am

Snake-Aes wrote:People say it's either after hellfier or after sacrifice. It's blurry for me and I simply assume it's both. Can't go wrong, and we have 3 cooldowns to burn anyway.


i never lost aggro after a sacrifice. not as a bear, not as a warrior and not as a protadin :) sometimes i didn't even notice it.
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Postby Arcand » Tue May 27, 2008 1:20 pm

I've had many sacrifices happen where I didn't notice any aggro change at all. And when I started staying with him through Hellfire and hitting Exorcism as soon as the Hellfire cast was underway, my aggro control went from not-very-good-at-all to pretty-solid.

For what it's worth.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue May 27, 2008 1:43 pm

steellynx wrote:
Snake-Aes wrote:People say it's either after hellfier or after sacrifice. It's blurry for me and I simply assume it's both. Can't go wrong, and we have 3 cooldowns to burn anyway.


i never lost aggro after a sacrifice. not as a bear, not as a warrior and not as a protadin :) sometimes i didn't even notice it.
I have noticed it with either, so I stick to my decision of always having a cooldown ready for either. It's not like we don't have enough burst cooldowns anyway, and it guarantees a solid kill.
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