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Lookit's Guide to Tanking Heroics

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Postby jere » Tue May 13, 2008 9:12 am

Nice guide, though I do have a question or two on one section:

Seal of Righteousness vs Seal of Vengeance - My personal preference is SoR every time. It's a guaranteed proc, and if there is one thing you want your threat to be, it's consistent. At below ~450 spell damage, SoV can technically be more threat than SoR, but the headache of stacks falling off and the slower start to threat generation makes it an unfavorable tradeoff in my opinion. At above ~450 spell damage, SoR wins out hands down due to its superior scaling with spell damage.


Where does your 450 number come from? That is actually pretty low. We worked on that math a while back and came up with a number that was a bit higher.

I won't get into arguing whether or not you should use SoR or SoV as I am pretty sure I would be in disagreement with you, but if you are going to put a solid number in there, it would be good to know a source for it. 450 is low from experience and from the math we did here on the forums. It was more on the level of 1k+ when we worked it out using simulations, algebra, and typical itemization. Additionally, even I still find SoV doing more threat at 800-900 dmg buffed in raids.
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Postby mazater » Tue May 13, 2008 9:15 am

Is it just me or doesn't the second link work?
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Postby guillex » Tue May 13, 2008 9:22 am

Mazater wrote:Is it just me or doesn't the second link work?


It doesn't.

Because of the ( )

Although the standard for characters which are allowed in URLs (RFC 1738) allows unencoded partheses in URLs, Wikipedia themselves encodes the URL once you click the “article” menu on their site (%28 und %29 being the encoded parantheses characters)


There you go. %28 to open, %29 to close.
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Postby Kelaan » Tue May 13, 2008 9:40 am

jere wrote:
Seal of Righteousness vs Seal of Vengeance - My personal preference is SoR every time.... At above ~450 spell damage, SoR wins out hands down due to its superior scaling with spell damage.


Where does your 450 number come from? That is actually pretty low. We worked on that math a while back and came up with a number that was a bit higher.


While on non-bosses, I prefer Righteousness (for the ability to judge on a new target or pickup a breaking CC), on bosses I tend to waffle on which I want. Not having the initial burst threat of SoR seems to work poorly for mygroupmates.

Now, doing a JoR/SoR/->JoR, SoV ->......... seems to work for LONG fights ... but I haven't seen many that actually last that long. Maybe in Kara, I guess.

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/ ... php?t=4960 ("SoR vs SoV - Ultimate battle!") has a pretty goodseeming run-down. The "Code" screenshot laid it out pretty well. Basically, under 1000 spelldamage, SoV does more threat in the long term, EVEN WITH stacks that aren't always full, or that drop off.

That said ... if you seem to have poor luck with SoV, it's understandable to want to go for the reliability of SoR... though I'd say that only the initial part of the fight matters for that.
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Postby Lookit » Tue May 13, 2008 12:52 pm

Aerfalle wrote:In your Bosses section, why not add to it with suggestions for heroic trash pulls? Or, at least for those which might be attempted earlier. Ramps can turn into a wipe fest if you don't know how to pull the trash.


That is an excellent idea, and something I definitely considered as I was writing the first draft. I chose to focus on bosses for the time being, and at some point may go through and detail some of the trickier pulls through out each instance. My hope was that the advice in the Pulling section would give someone the tools necessary to determine the best way to handle tricky pulls in a general sense, although it doesn't help much if you aren't aware of any unusual abilities that particular mobs might have.

jere wrote:
Where does your 450 number come from? That is actually pretty low. We worked on that math a while back and came up with a number that was a bit higher.

I won't get into arguing whether or not you should use SoR or SoV as I am pretty sure I would be in disagreement with you, but if you are going to put a solid number in there, it would be good to know a source for it. 450 is low from experience and from the math we did here on the forums. It was more on the level of 1k+ when we worked it out using simulations, algebra, and typical itemization. Additionally, even I still find SoV doing more threat at 800-900 dmg buffed in raids.


The 450 figure came from a thread that I read a while back which claimed that it took about 900 spell damage for the seal component of the two abilities to equal out, but that it took much less for the judgement component to do so because of the much better scaling. 450 was claimed to be the middle ground that resulted in overall equality. I'm not able to find that thread at the moment, so I've changed the wording in the OP.

I personally used to use SoV a great deal, but as I gained more spell damage and began using a faster weapon, I found SoR to be much more reliable. Anecdotally, I found that when I started with JoR and switched to SoV on fights where the DPS was going all out, I'd have bad luck with procs and stacks falling off. The cooldown on my Judgement would be up, but I'd only have 2 stacks since it had recently fallen off, so I'd have to cast SoR and judge it. It became less of a headache for me to simply stick to SoR all the time in heroics.

One other fact that lead me to recommend SoR in this guide was that most fights in heroic dungeons don't last long enough that the increased overall threat of SoV is worth the tradeoff of decreased reliability in the initial 30 seconds of a fight.

I am going to do some addition research and some testing ingame myself so that I can be comfortable giving some more concrete advice than the guide currently provides. Thank you for asking about it, because in reconsideration I agree that it was unreliable information.
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Postby Dagara » Wed May 14, 2008 7:58 am

Thanks for this.
An excellent guide.
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Postby Semajyendor » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:57 am

Consise great guide, helping me a great deal!
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Postby Lowgrus » Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:31 am

-good luck trying to get a dps warrior to do t clap/demo shout.

-only have shaman drop GoA/over WoA if you have two... you doing more damage is better and more than likely you'll have more casters I guess only time you'd drop GoA is if no drop WoA. unless you have like 3 hunters or something.

-I hate adding my own opinions to good threads like this but plz dont bring rogues to heroics if your just starting out. You want your groups to be synergistic rogues are great dps, they do nothing else for you.

When your starting out with heroics do

Shadowpriest
Resto Shaman
Mage
Warlock
Yourself

By far eziest eventually it doesn't matter. and you know you can have melee groups and such blah blah blah. This group buffs eachother pretty well mage is good for cc, warlock can be more CC if you need it curse of otunes is good. Wrath of air is amazing and you get a bloodlust and shadowpriest help keeps ya up with VE ticks/ and gives more mana back to whole group.

I'm a big fan of that group set up when just starting out. You know eventaully I do stuff like Dps warrior/encahncmenet shaman/Resto Shaman/ Me/Rogue or another fury warrior for crazy melee gropu ya know when you dont need CC and healers wont have an issue kepeing you up until then the first gropu is better.
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Postby Lookit » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:12 am

Lowgrus wrote:-good luck trying to get a dps warrior to do t clap/demo shout.

-only have shaman drop GoA/over WoA if you have two... you doing more damage is better and more than likely you'll have more casters I guess only time you'd drop GoA is if no drop WoA. unless you have like 3 hunters or something.

-I hate adding my own opinions to good threads like this but plz dont bring rogues to heroics if your just starting out. You want your groups to be synergistic rogues are great dps, they do nothing else for you.

When your starting out with heroics do

Shadowpriest
Resto Shaman
Mage
Warlock
Yourself

By far eziest eventually it doesn't matter. and you know you can have melee groups and such blah blah blah. This group buffs eachother pretty well mage is good for cc, warlock can be more CC if you need it curse of otunes is good. Wrath of air is amazing and you get a bloodlust and shadowpriest help keeps ya up with VE ticks/ and gives more mana back to whole group.

I'm a big fan of that group set up when just starting out. You know eventaully I do stuff like Dps warrior/encahncmenet shaman/Resto Shaman/ Me/Rogue or another fury warrior for crazy melee gropu ya know when you dont need CC and healers wont have an issue kepeing you up until then the first gropu is better.


Well, the dps warrior obviously doesn't need to keep TC/Demo up for the whole run. Like I said, just ask them to use it on particularly hard-hitting melee mobs. If they can't manage to pop out of beserker stance for 1 pull, I don't know what to tell you.

Regarding WoA vs GoA, like I said, WoA is the preferrable choice overall, but if threat is not an issue but survivability is, drop GoA. A dead tank does less TPS than a tank without WoA. Pretty simple concept.

And rogues are great in heroics. They aren't as easy-mode as a mage with regards to CC, but with their stuns and blind and interrupts, a well-played rogue contributes much more overall survivability than a mage. Especially now that AS no longer breaks CC, I actually prefer sap to sheep, because I know a sapped mob is going to stay right where he is, and not accidentally end up in my consecrate like a mob that is sheeped too late. The duration of sap is usually more than enough time to kill the un-CC'd mobs.

Considering that someone starting out is likely going to be pugging a lot and won't be able to cherry-pick their team mates, chances are they'll end up with a rogue in their group sooner rather than later. If they know the strengths of the class and know what to ask for, they are better served.

And yes, that group composition is pretty much perfect, and if I could pick anyone that's probably what I would choose. If you can get a regular crew going with that lineup, you'll have a pretty easy time =)
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Postby jere » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:32 am

A well played rogue is actually very handy. I can usually tell when I have a good one if when a sap breaks early, I see it get blinded really quick.

Also, before all the nerfs to heroic old hillsbrad, a good rogue made the run monumentally shorter (he could stealth in and set all the bombs while the rest of the group cleared the first couple pulls in the keep...saved a lot of time)
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Postby duruk » Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:02 pm

I did crypts today on heroic for the first time (it was daily and I needed badges for another gem), and it was almost as bad as Shadow Labyrinth. Or at least the first room was. Looking back tho, it was kinda fun. My thoughts on the subject:

1st room:
Be very carful when you pull. Some of the mobs will spawn a possesor, and he'll mindcontroll one of you. Even the tank. 2 mages make this room much easier, and boomkin can cyclone occasionally as well. Some of the two mob pulls should both be sheeped so you can deal with the spawned adds first. Lots of shadowpriests in there, so shadow resist aura is good.

If you haven't done this before, let someone else mark.

After 1st room, it gets much easier fortunately.

Anyways, 1st boss:
Tank in the middle, let rest of group spread out into corners. Tank and spank. They'll have to move, you don't.

2nd boss:
at 10% spawns a duplicate, and some additional "Lost souls". Tank and spank, and pick whatever adds you can. You need to kill "both" bosses.

Hope this helps. Cheers :)
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Postby argentevenin » Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:23 pm

lol at the marking guide - does practically every1 use the same? :O
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This is fantastic

Postby thebandicalendar » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:50 pm

I am not gonna lie- this is brilliant!
thanks so much
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Yo

Postby thebandicalendar » Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:50 pm

I mean the guide is great- no sarcasm lol
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Postby Katerina » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:50 am

Oh, sweet guide, thank you so very much!

As a note, the buff on the last boss in OHB can be removed by a hunter's arcane shot as well as the other methods metioned. Actually tried it with a hunter yesterday (from advice here!) and worked like a charm. Makes the fight 100% easier if your crazy dpsers stay salved and RF doesn't keep dropping off. (Not to mention not losing Kings/Fort/etc)
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