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Damage expectations - Rule of thumb

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Damage expectations - Rule of thumb

Postby Marker » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:41 am

I've been doing alot of PuGs lately and the range of skill of the DPS is huge. I've started considering a big HP pool on the DPS class a big warning sign when getting invitet to the group, NORMALLY meaning PvP Epics and poor skill, both with regards to DPS and boss-strategy-know-how.

Since I haven't played a DPS class more than leveling to 70, then putting it on the shelf to play more tankadin, I'm wondering what DPS I should expect from DPS classes, given gear-level ofc (instance blues, PvP Epics, Kara blues, raid equipped). Guess it's different for singel target, 2-3 targets and AoE situations...

Im just after some rule of thumb, a pinpoint to whether or not they are carrying their load...
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Postby Worldie » Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:08 am

The more season 1 you see, the less skill you should expect from that player.

If the DPS have more HP than you, you are in trouble.
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Postby Loganb1104 » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:45 am

Gear, unfortunately, is an unreliable predictor of DPS. With some exceptions, anyone can get carried through an instance or raid and grab gear. A few pieces of Kara gear could just mean that the player happens to be a friend of a member of a top raiding guild and was brought along on their badge runs. Conversely, quest blues and greens doesn't necessarily mean n00b. You could simply be dealing with a seasoned player's freshly-dinged level 70 alt.

I've seen fully epic'd warlocks do <200 dps, DoT up the wrong targets, and die every 5 minutes. I've seen warlocks in what looks like crap gear masterfully seduce, banish, and dps their way through tough heroics. There ARE some things I look for that give me a good idea of what someone's capabilities are:

1. As previously stated, a lot of Gladiator gear is a warning sign. Anyone can AFK their way through AV/EoTS enough to be wearing all purples. Even if the player is actually good at BGs, it doesn't mean they're good at PvE. Be careful!

2. A player's spec can tell you a lot about their DPS capabilities. Even if you don't know much about the player's class, a lot of points spread haphazardly about the trees generally isn't a good thing. 61/0/0 is generally a bad spec. 20/21/20 is generally worse. Also look for talents that have no useful place in PvE ("warlock with chance to stun enemy on spell hit...huh?").

3. The way a player gems and enchants his/her gear can tell you a lot. Spirit gems on a prot pally? Intellect gems and enchants on a warlock? +spell penetration gems on... well... any caster? The hunter with a +defense rating trinket and a riding crop equipped? Run fast, run far.

4. Finally, a less scientific (but surprisingly accurate) way of estimating a player's skill/DPS sometimes is as easy as looking at his/her name. Names that were clearly made by a 14-year-old should make you wary. More often than not, a toon named Ipwnnoobs is more at home ganking lowbies in the starter areas than grouping for a heroic dungeon. Do yourself a favor and don't take him out of his natural habitat.

Aside from making these surface evaluations of players before beginning a raid/instance, the only real way to judge their skill is to take them in there and see what they can do.
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Postby Ariashley » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:50 am

In regular 5-mans, you should expect most DPS classes to be in the 250-400 dps range. In heroics, you should expect most DPS classes to be in the 400-700 dps range. You will see some people top 1000 in heroics (and probably pulling aggro).

If you're in a heroic, and there is ANYONE who is supposed to be DPS being out DPSed by you, boot them. They should be in a regular instance and not bumming badges off of other people.

<---my main is a rogue. In 2/8 T6, I run between 750-850 dps raid specced in a heroic. If specced shadowstep (because it's a weekend), I'll be around 650-750 instead. I don't run a heroic unless 1) I'm wearing PvP gear which is mainly S3 and knocks my DPS for another 150 or 2) one of my T6 guild mates is tanking it or MT of another BT/Hyjal guild is. I want to get badges, not a repair bill. (Note that rogues benefit more than perhaps any other DPS class from raid buffs. In a raid, DPS is 1400-2200, depending on the fight)
Last edited by Ariashley on Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kelaan » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:55 am

Dual-wield skinning knives? ;)
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Postby thando36 » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:03 am

[quote="Ariashley"]

If you're in a heroic, and there is ANYONE who is supposed to be DPS being out DPSed by you, boot them. They should be in a regular instance and not bumming badges off of other people.

quote]

idk about that, go aoe tank heroic SP UB and such and you will be right there with the dps (above them by a fair bit if they have no aoe)
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Postby shifttusk » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:48 am

Worldie wrote:The more season 1 you see, the less skill you should expect from that player.

If the DPS have more HP than you, you are in trouble.


This is where you end up with issues its so hard to tell.

Example my hunter. I have a ton of pve gear on my hunter but I run heroics in his pvp gear incase I get hit by aoe's or resisted traps etc. Its a nice cushon to have 12khp as a dps when your CC is less than reliable. That being said I put out around 1200dps in my pvp gear with just pve trinkets and rings on. Granted its full s3 but it is still pvp gear. But on my pally I've had a full s1 rogues and locks that I outdps with a whooping 210 SD. Your best bet is to just develop a list of bad puggers mine is growing.

For the OP at 70 these are some rough guestimates from my hunter, this is rolling with a BM spec in blues and then i swapped to survival once i had 800 agility. Your mileage may vary with other dps classes:

I'm wondering what DPS I should expect from DPS classes, given gear-level ofc

instance blues - 550-600 DPS as bm with blue weapon
PvP Epics - 500-600 in S1 upwards of 900 with s3 gear
Kara blues - 700-750 DPS
raid equipped - T4 800-1k t5 1k-1.2k t6 1.5k+
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Easylay - 70 Paladin Anetheron 0/49/12
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Postby inthedrops » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:07 pm

There's no 100% fool proof way to tell how well a dps will do until you just get in there and start doing. The alternative for people, including myself, is not take the risk. Sure, we're probably wrong often. But I'd rather misjudge someone's capabilities and move on to something else than get caught up trying to think of a good lie to get out of a group.
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Postby Minn » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:16 pm

I usually reserve judgement on damage dealers til I've seen a couple boss fights. Fine-tuning spell sequences for trash mobs can be a pain in the rear, and while it is nice to run with dps who can take advantage of my threat, I don't *really* care if the mob dies 1.5s faster because the mage popped fireblast for the kill instead of another scorch. On boss fights though, you get enough time to see who knows what they're doing.
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Postby lament » Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:33 pm

I usually look at gems, some classes have very specific ways to gem. If you see a shadow priest or affliction lock in anything but pure spell dmg, or hit, they missed the day professor lrn2play taught the lesson that dots (and mindflay) don't crit, so while you could be getting some benefit from crit (nightfall procs, mind blast), it's much more efficient to gem for spell damage. Spell penetration gems are a bad sign too; spell pen does nothing for pve. You'll usually find it in pieces with little or no stamina so they're definitely not gemming pvp gear, they just have no idea what they're doing. There are also a few Karazhan epics that are just quite literally trash with blues that are superior to them like http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28726 (too much of the item value wasted on spell pen) and http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28670 (too much of the item value wasted on spirit) which usually indicates to me a person who doesn't know what makes gear good and just took it because it's epic.
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Postby Lookit » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:14 pm

lament wrote:There are also a few Karazhan epics that are just quite literally trash with blues that are superior to them like http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28726 (too much of the item value wasted on spell pen) and http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28670 (too much of the item value wasted on spirit) which usually indicates to me a person who doesn't know what makes gear good and just took it because it's epic.


While I agree with your points, I would say that I'd hesitate to dismiss someone's competence just because they have a poorly itemized epic. If you're running Kara, you might have blue boots that are simply not as good as http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28670, so you take them because an upgrade's an upgrade, even if it's not ideally itemized.

And yeah, I totally agree with you about gems. I worry about prot pally's I see with +spell dmg gems sometimes too, when they aren't uncrushable.
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Postby DracoTB » Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:02 pm

Loganb1104 wrote:1. As previously stated, a lot of Gladiator gear is a warning sign. Anyone can AFK their way through AV/EoTS enough to be wearing all purples. Even if the player is actually good at BGs, it doesn't mean they're good at PvE. Be careful!

Glad I'm not the only one to cringe whenever I see someone in a PvE PUG wearing PvP gear. I'll give them a chance but, more often than not, I end up leaving those groups.

inthedrops wrote:But I'd rather misjudge someone's capabilities and move on to something else than get caught up trying to think of a good lie to get out of a group.

I don't make up lies when I leave a group. If the tank sux then I say I'm leaving because the tank sux. Happened to me yesterday in a PUG for SH. The tank was a bear in full Gladiator and was new at tanking (his words), I left after dying for about the 5th time (I was on my shaman healing). Just before I left I told him he needed more practice and to do it in the lower level instances. He got upset but it really is what he needed to do. Hopefully he actually did.
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Postby Worldie » Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:10 pm

Lookit wrote:And yeah, I totally agree with you about gems. I worry about prot pally's I see with +spell dmg gems sometimes too, when they aren't uncrushable.

A prot paladin with +spelldam gem
1) doesn't read maintankadin
2) doesn't know his job
3) is clueless
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halabar wrote:Noo.. you don't realize the problem. Worldie was to negative guild breaking energy like Bolvar is to the Scourge. If Worldie is removed, than someone must pick up that mantle, otherwise that negative guild breaking energy will run rampant, destroying all the servers.
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Postby lament » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:59 am

Lookit wrote:
lament wrote:There are also a few Karazhan epics that are just quite literally trash with blues that are superior to them like http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28726 (too much of the item value wasted on spell pen) and http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28670 (too much of the item value wasted on spirit) which usually indicates to me a person who doesn't know what makes gear good and just took it because it's epic.


While I agree with your points, I would say that I'd hesitate to dismiss someone's competence just because they have a poorly itemized epic. If you're running Kara, you might have blue boots that are simply not as good as http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28670, so you take them because an upgrade's an upgrade, even if it's not ideally itemized.

And yeah, I totally agree with you about gems. I worry about prot pally's I see with +spell dmg gems sometimes too, when they aren't uncrushable.


Any logical way you gem http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28179, a quest reward from SL nonheroic, you'll attain more spell dmg than http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28670. And you're unlikely to get keyed for Karazhan without doing that quest. But that's a tangent, I think there's just certain pieces that really drive me crazy seeing people wear. I agree with you on pure spell dmg gems in paladins.
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Postby Marker » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:12 am

thanks for the good input!

I know there's more to DPS than gear, but you have got to start somewhere. Also, judging on other things than color/iLevel of items is hard if you don't know the class.

What I should have pointed out in the first post was that my biggest concern is with S1 geared people. S3 geared people are normally a breeze in HCs, especially those requirering some CC or other skills beyond pressing the pre-recorded 4 button combination to max PvE DPS. But then again, that's not much else than MgT HC now... They usually handle unplanned adds and broken CC very well, kiting things for ages, MC, counterspell, spellsteal or using other creative ways to save the day.

Even simple things like counterspelling is something few of the mages I've pugged with do... I'm standing somewhere tanking 3-4 mobs and a SAP/Sheep/Trap breaks and they just watch the caster stand at maxrange attacking someone, until it switches target and goes for the healer. I normally taunt them before that and LoS if possible, but still...
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