MgT normal/heroic FYI

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MgT normal/heroic FYI

Postby Brickhouse » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:19 am

This post will get quite dense so if you don't like reading, stop now.

Ok, so you made it this far, so you might get something out of this after all. =) Disclaimer: there are more than one way to skin a cat, the following is just MHO.

MgT in normal mode is somewhat similar to HEROIC Mana-Tombs or HEROIC Arkatraz. Not that the first boss requires shadow resistance, but in that they are "different" than your normal frisbee, drink, and loot vanilla heroics. They have mobs to learn, a lot of damn casters, and AoE healer is at a premium. But, at a minimum, think of the MgT normal mode as a harder heroic (if there is such a thing).

Group composition: Normal mode, one good CC (mage, rogue, or shadow priest work best, since they work throughout the instance - I have never gone without a mage though), and at least one other quasi-CC (priest, warlock, hunter, etc). I use the term quasi, because things like Fear, banish or enslave are not always possible/desireable. 1-2 random DPS (more CC doesn't hurt, that is for sure) =) Ideally, an AoE healer until you are comfortable doing the instance...but in normal mode not really required if the person is well equipped.

In heroic, you will likely need at LEAST 2 solid crowd control (rogue, mage, etc), and an AoE healer sure makes it easier. This instance is fairly stressful for a paladin healer - esp. on encounters like the 2nd boss.

You do have one "free" dps slot, and it seems like every warrior on my server wants to go, but normally I rather give that spot to someone like a shaman with totems, or yet another CC. IMHO warriors don't add too much to your group in this instance, so you are doing them a favor by taking them.

Trash Tactics:
In normal and heroic, trash management is pretty much the same, use whatever CC you got. As a bonus, you can always consecrate out of hairy situations in normal mode, but in heroic mode, 99% of the time you will wipe if you pull adds. Once I wiped after pulling adds, even though we had just about finished off the last mob from the previous pull. The problem was no markings and thus no controlled CC. =( So we wiped nonetheless.

CC every pull - you should be able to "control" at least 2 mobs per pull. This makes skillful use of consecration required. If you have the proper amount of spell damage, you should have no problems with Aggro. Most mobs are casters, so if you are a blood elf, put Arcane Torrent on your action bar, and use it every cooldown. =) It helps build more Aggro, but mostly reduces the damage. The damage in heroic mode without CC is very, very high. So, while consecration can work, you will likely need to be T6 equipped + T6 healer. I am guessing it will still be hectic and the damage very high, but it could work (I am not T6 equipped, so I cannot confirm).

Make sure Decursive is active, and always dispell as you tank. Most mobs are casters anyway, so that you don't block during the dispell is irrelevent. And, in heroic mode, the dots are rather painful, and stressful to heal through.

The kill oder doesn't matter too much, as long as two are locked down -and fire is focused. The Blood Knight and the Physician are the only healing classes, and I find them most dangerous - and they are also the most stout. I will either CC both of these, and kill the others, or lock down two other dmg classes, and kill these two first. The Blood Knight has only one heal - which is large, but has a long cooldown, so he will only use it once. The Physician has a Prayer of Mending, which can heal through a group for a bit...so making sure he is killed quickly or CC is beneficial. The warlock seems to cause the most damage, if you let his dots tick through, and let him cast away. As a last note, always kill the Imp first (there is always one by a warlock, so be aware of that). The cause moderate damage, but die in 2 hits, so they should be quickly dispatched. Also, move out of the Bubble (force field) that is cast by the Mage Guard. It reduces your spell damage (threat). Once you go through in normal mode, and have proper gear, you can easily go straight to heroic - follow the next point.

This instance is not super challenging on the tank. Nothing hits THAT hard. It is mostly an instance about Crowd Control, and controlled and directed DPS. Weak DPS can be a liability, weak CC will lead to failure. Also, great healing is also required - as I take 5k fireballs from Kael, per hit. Fire resistance doesn't help much - I tried 365 once, but not really worth it. Great tanking, however, is not required. But, controlled tanking and flexibility is required.

I did heroic this morning (perhaps my best group ever) with randoms, with only 1 wipe on 2nd boss - that alone is pretty miraculous. We had:

Me (pallytank, naturally)
Priest healer
Rogue
Warlock
Mage

From my experiences, this is the ideal group. Full CC, AoE healing, Dots for the last boss. But, these randoms, I have to admit, were rather skilled. I have dummies, even in my guild, that are not as good.

Bosses:
First boss - just like last boss in SteamVaults. I pull him to the left corner, and move him around slowly (so people can figure out what I am doing) to the crystals - so that the rogue can efficiently kill them as well. He is free loot - a wipe on him should be very rare. Basically the same on normal and heroic, just hits harder on the latter.

Vexallus - WAY harder on heroic - this second boss will likely wipe most groups 3-4 times before people figure it out. On the tank, it is pretty easy, so the wipes are usually the DPS fault. If you have a skilled mage, this boss can be very easy.

I have read that Arcane resist helps on him, because his melee attacks are 100% arcane damage. I always forget to carry my AR gear, so I cannot confirm.

The best tactics is spread out the Add killing amongst people that can remove the Debuff. I will try to grab 2-4, then bubble to remove them, and resume tanking. To do this, you need to bubble and remove it immediately. But, it works. A Rogue and Mage can remove the debuff with ice block and clock of shadows, respectively. He spawns the adds every 15% health, so must try to control you DPS, in proportion to the healing available. Though, trying to control DPS is like trying to control maniacs, unfortunately. Full out dps on boss = 100% wipe. Once he is low, 20%, he starts casting an AoE chain lightning spell (unless I am mistaken, it is nature based). At this point, full out DPS - and hope for the best. That is pretty much how this boss works. He sucks. He can be challenging on normal mode, but is VERY hard (I think the hardest boss) in heroic mode.

Third boss: DO NOT FORGET your healing gear, throw it on, and treat it exactly like a 5v5 PvP fight. Do not waste your time trying to tank. Not only is righteous fury dispelled constantly, but they ignore Aggro anyway. The key is to mark everything, and control everything as much as possible, use ALL abilities like Stun, frost nova, fears, banish, blind, turn evil, AoE fears. Mostly, I dispell, and keep an eye on the "real" healer, and am ready to throw Blessing of protection on them. Focus fire (the imp if there) on the Priestess, and CC the Shaman. They are the only two healers. If they are dead, and you have 5 people still standing, then the encounter is now picking cherries off a tree. It is very fast, and normally takes 1 try per group to get the timing down. CC, and burn down the priestess ASAP, then pick through the cherries, loot. Unless I am mistaken, everything is immune to mind control. The normal mode is just like the heroic mode, only easier, since the damage is way lower. However, you will still wipe if not played properly.

If you have made it this far, there is only two challenges left - which you should be able to overcome.

There is one more pull, a six mob group before the last boss. If you wipe on it, you will have to do all of them again - so better to mark them, control them, and get it the first time. Approach it just like the previous encounter, mark and control all that is possible. I generally try to sap/sheep casters that would normally stay at range, and let the rest run into my consecrate. Again, use stuns, arcane torrent, turn evil, etc...If you remembered to put your tank gear back on, then you should be fine =)

The last boss: Kael'thas

Normal mode and heroic mode are roughly the same:
He casts fireballs every few seconds on the tank. they hit for 2k or so on normal mode, and 5k on heroic mode. He will spawn 1-2 phoenix's (depending on your group's dps). they need to be killed by ranged DPS. When the die, they cause AoE damage. Ideally, they die away from the Main Tank. He also casts Flamestrike, AoE fire damage (5k normal/9k hero) which needs to be moved out of. It is easy to spot, and all must move out of it. AT 50% health, he does a cool little spell that allows everyone to float in space (which ticks some moderate damage on you). It can easily be healed through with any healer DoT. Additionally, these little balls follow you, and if they reach you, the cause AoE damage for around 2k in heroic mode. You move 2-3x faster than them, so there is no real excuse for one hitting you. But, if they do, not that big of a deal, since as a tank, we have way more health than most others =)...For non-tanks, not dodging them is more problematic. This continues for a bit, til he gets tired, then you all fall to the ground, and dps can resume. Ideally, you will have a DoT class like warlock or shadow priest, that can keep him Dotted up. Also, ranged Dps can continue to DpS as spacing with the Balls allows. This second phase is pretty easy for us. All we really have to do is be mindful of the floating balls, and throw around some of our weak heals.

There is one more caveat on heroic...He will cast one Pyroblast that does like 33k damage or so. Yep, it is designed to dispatch almost all tanks if they take it. It can be interrupted (by rogue or shaman, I think mage too), but he shields himself first, and that shield must first be dispatched. On the positive side, we simply need to Divine Shield ourself, problem solved, whether or not our group is on top of things.

I finally got my tank trinket today, so just have to grind out another 15k reputation for a new shield =)

Hope you found this informative.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:26 am

Small correction: Delrissa and her minions are all crowd controllable. Except for the priestess herself, everything works on them..fear, stun, sheep, sap, interrupts, traps...Delrissa herself is vulnerable to traps and snares(not poly/fear).
Hunter pet seems to follow a regular aggro table as long as the demon is being controlled(<3 turn evil), so holy shield alone should keep the pet from being a problem at all.

Hunter: Keep him feared/banished, CD is longer than the fear duration. Traps.
Engineer(Gan'arg): Keep him feared/banished. His devices can be "kited" and damaged down before they hit the squishies.
Naga: a must-cc if you have many clothies, hits for roughly 3k on cloth, mortal strike, intercept.
Rogue: Treat as a pvp rogue. Gouge, vanish, blind, poisons(crippling and mortal I think), kick.
Shirtless rogue: Feels like a demon hunter, dual wields, interrupts, has a couple debuffs to lock casters down.
Ethereal: Deals heavy damage Blizzard, can be controlled in any way.
Shaman: Healer / dps. Downs windfury, fire nova. Goes oom easy.
Warlock: Does Immolate, Shadow Bolt, Fear, Seed of Corruption. Easiest one to "spare" and let free, cleanse neutralizes 80% of her threat.

Both Delrissa and Apoko(shaman) heal a lot so you don't want to have both free. Wound Poison helps tons. Delrissa's heals are the worst, as they are on an unexistent cooldown and heal a lot. Purge/Kick whatever you can and burn her down first and you're golden.



On Kael heroic, it's good to time your shield for after halfway through the pyro cast, else he might target something else.
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Postby jere » Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:10 am

Snake-Aes wrote:Small correction: Delrissa and her minions are all crowd controllable. Except for the priestess herself, everything works on them..fear, stun, sheep, sap, interrupts, traps...Delrissa herself is vulnerable to traps and snares(not poly/fear).


They don't seem to be mind-controllable, and we have had no luck with Seduce on any of them to-date. I think all the rest work well enough though.
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Postby Dianora » Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:32 am

Snake-Aes wrote:Small correction: Delrissa and her minions are all crowd controllable. Except for the priestess herself, everything works on them..fear, stun, sheep, sap, interrupts, traps...Delrissa herself is vulnerable to traps and snares(not poly/fear).
Hunter pet seems to follow a regular aggro table as long as the demon is being controlled(<3 turn evil), so holy shield alone should keep the pet from being a problem at all.

Hunter: Keep him feared/banished, CD is longer than the fear duration. Traps.
Engineer(Gan'arg): Keep him feared/banished. His devices can be "kited" and damaged down before they hit the squishies.
Naga: a must-cc if you have many clothies, hits for roughly 3k on cloth, mortal strike, intercept.
Rogue: Treat as a pvp rogue. Gouge, vanish, blind, poisons(crippling and mortal I think), kick.
Shirtless rogue: Feels like a demon hunter, dual wields, interrupts, has a couple debuffs to lock casters down.
Ethereal: Deals heavy damage Blizzard, can be controlled in any way.
Shaman: Healer / dps. Downs windfury, fire nova. Goes oom easy.
Warlock: Does Immolate, Shadow Bolt, Fear, Seed of Corruption. Easiest one to "spare" and let free, cleanse neutralizes 80% of her threat.

Both Delrissa and Apoko(shaman) heal a lot so you don't want to have both free. Wound Poison helps tons. Delrissa's heals are the worst, as they are on an unexistent cooldown and heal a lot. Purge/Kick whatever you can and burn her down first and you're golden.



On Kael heroic, it's good to time your shield for after halfway through the pyro cast, else he might target something else.


The shirtless blood elf is a fury warrior. He pummels spell casting. CC if possible.
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Postby Snake-Aes » Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:54 am

Magical debuffs? >.> I'd say warrior if it wasn't for that. ANyway, both rogue and shirtless dual wielder are bad deal for casters. Rogue is more annoying overall but dies faster.
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Postby 2ndNin » Mon Apr 07, 2008 9:26 am

Going to disagree a bit here.

Kill order

Mage Guard / Imp (kill the thing as you pull, its not hard)
Maiden
Blood Knight
Warlock
Magister
Witch
Physician
Consortium

Mage guards if they are not under cc die first as they knockdown the whole group, a downed healer in this place will often kill the tank. Maidens have a non-damage interruptable (ie: its not a succubus it just looks like one) seduction, again on tank or healer this can be a death sentence. The Physician other than his annoying heals is a melee type, and we like melee types, burn through his heals (focus other targets) and come back for him, cleanse his poisons and he does little. The bloodknight is annoying and can take ages to get down, or keep other mobs up for a long time, getting rid of him is a priority. Consortium dude dies last, his aoe is weak and he hits like a pansy,let him go aoe and come back to you.

Its quite important to have 1 reliable cc in this instance (ok, thats a lie I have aoe tanked this place with no cc, its not fun), and it should walk down the kill order basically, mage guards get cc'd and left till last if you can. More than 1 cc on most pulls with a competent healer is just a waste, the bloodknight and physician are basically mana batteries for you, the warlock is a threat and the magister can become a threat.

First boss is a walkover for most groups, ignore the crystals and the aoe and just nuke him, remembering to cleanse the drains. He has low health, low damage and the aoe is rather weak, any time you dps the crystals is basically a waste of mana / time as he will get a lot of his mana back anyway so you save yourself 1-2 aoes and the crystal explosion normally in return for a fair whack of damage.

2nd boss is healer dependent, a CoH priest is basically the only healer I have seen where the "nuke the boss and screw the adds" plan works. For others spread the damage over the classes and throw out hots, with a paladin healer you have the endurance to basically let the dot run out before moving on (or can still iceblock etc). Try not to let the tank take the dots with a paladin healer (or really any healer) as it means way more healing on you and a lot less time spent on the others. Take this fight slow, its basically a punishment for high dps,if you nuke too fast you get more adds, more adds = more dots, and more dots = more dead.

Third boss fight can be a joke or stupidly hard. Use as much cc as possible, and go healer. The key tends to be locking down the warriors and then Killing the priestess (Pyro pulls then cc are good). Clear the area first if you are using fears,no matter how much time this takes having a feared guy run into the adds and wipe you is a waste of time and effort.

Priestess
Pet / Imp (v.fast kills, less pushback)
Naga <----- Start cc here and work down
Shaman
BE Fury Guy
Rogue
Lock
Hunter
Engineer
Mage

again cc in order of the kill list, (barring the pets :P / priestess), and rotate the kill list as appropriate, you don't want the shaman, naga or be up at all,if they are you will have a lot harder time of this fight, the casters and hunter are basically a joke in this fight compared to the top 3. Remember to kings everyone rather than salvation,you can't hold aggro anymore than a seive holds water so give people hits. Bubble people to move the mobs around and don't be afraid to blow LoH, keeping a caster up and casting is more important than us in this fight as we are basically "the fifth man".

Kael, is unlike the 2nd boss a dps race. All of his abilities are on timers (from what I have seen) bar maybe the flame strike / consecration thing.Nuke fast and hard to get him down, if a phoenix pops up deal with that instead of Kael then go back. The pyroblast is a joke, divine shield through it and carry on, you should only see 1 of these and it is completely negated (Kael will likely fireball 1 other party member before you get your shield down, its only 6k max). Phase 2 is even more of a joke tbh, don't heal the tank bar in the down phases between lapses, keep dps health high and avoid the balls, ideally switch to your healing weapon / shield and heal a bit, take 1 dps and yourself and spam fol on them / you to keep them standing. A priest can wand this guy down from 30% easily, as tank I have solo'd the fight from 24%, phase 2 is basically an observation check, can you see the purple balls and move away from them, if you can't then its gg, otherwise its a walk over. Druids and warriors have a lot more problems with the pyro (it doesn't seem to be spell reflectable), so we are in a great position of basically being able to ignore the shield stage and just play this like a normal with a little more damage.
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Postby Sthallas » Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:20 pm

I don't even bother with CC anymore, maybe rarely a sheep/sap on a mage guard but most of the time I just chain pull the groups now, you can HoJ the MG when it runs in if you feel it's necessary. 1 CC + fear for the Princess adds is more than enough as well, though my last run we didn't have any CC (except the occasional Cyclone from the druid healer, lol) and still had no wipes. I will say that this is a Heroic that I'd never PUG though.

Also have never seen a Pyro and never got past 1 GL, if you do then get better dps IMO.
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Postby Moses » Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:22 pm

You don't NEED to be T6 to get through this place without much CC. I just completed a run last night with a Lock, Shadow Priest, Fury warrior and holy/disc priest last night. Although the fury warrior and lock were t5ish the priest was an alt in decent blues and the healer and me were kara/badge geared characters. Smart HoJ/Arcane Torrent use are vital as well as getting as much sta as you can. I also find it useful to let the priest know that I'll take care of dispelling myself so she/he can just spam big heals on me.

I'm not quite to the point where I'm ready to run it with no CC yet but I'm close so I'd say T5ish it should be doable. I've been practicing playing on the corners too and you can mitigate a lot of the caster damage by shifting out of LOS right before they finish the spell.
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Postby 2ndNin » Tue Apr 08, 2008 2:43 am

T4.5, no cc.

(whole party was geared this way, no deaths no wipes)

Its doable but hard, especially risky with a bad 3rd boss or mage guards being up, but its really a fun challenge to do so.
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Postby Marker » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:05 am

Can I freely consecrate at Vex or will that kill adds? I've tried it a bit but didn't kill them, but that might have been luck...
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Postby Snake-Aes » Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:40 am

bit of luck thing, they spawn right at the consecration's corner.
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Postby Cearn » Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:27 am

Note on Selin: Ignoring the crystal actually came down to being a far more useful tactic to me on heroic. DPSing him down before he engages the second crystal reduces overall damage far.
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Postby Brenna » Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:11 am

Sorry, quick rant.

I'm so tired of hunter traps being undervalued. They are not "weak" or "quasi" CC! Saps being counted strong but not traps? Huh? Saps are of limited duration, cannot be reapplied in combat, only work on humanoids...

A hunter should be able to keep a mob chain-trapped indefinitely, and if it breaks early due to a resist (gee thanks Blizzard for making trap resists work off of spell hit, which no hunter gears for), the hunter should be able to kite it until the next trap cooldown, or scatter shot if they're MM. We only have problems if the mob we're being asked to trap is a caster or ranged mob, in which case we can still trap it with a little extra effort (silencing shot, line of sight, scatter/trap). Plus we can trap just about any type of mob (water elementals are out).

Hunter traps are one of the best CC's available in heroics, just behind sheep (and ahead of sheep if there are no humanoids around!)

In terms of Magister's Terrace, my groups have had tended to trap the Blood Knights most, which seems to work well.
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Postby Talryn » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:06 pm

I don't think anyone undervalues traps. Traps work very well in MgT overall. The only place where traps are of questionable value compared to sap and sheep is on the 3rd boss but that's only because you can't guarantee what the mobs do in that fight.

I still see the 3rd boss as being very difficult on heroic mode without any CC unless you have really good gear. BoP would help obviously. The warriors and rogues do a lot of damage plus all of those adds do CC and stun you.

The rest of the instance isn't too bad if the party helps to minimize damage and focuses properly. I think the biggest threat is the magisters since their haste buff can quickly stack up and mean a lot of damage onto the tank or healer.
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Postby Brenna » Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:10 pm

Talryn wrote:I don't think anyone undervalues traps.


The OP does. "Quasi-CC"... bah.

Talryn wrote:Traps work very well in MgT overall. The only place where traps are of questionable value compared to sap and sheep is on the 3rd boss but that's only because you can't guarantee what the mobs do in that fight.


True, since you can't really get aggro to pull a mob into your trap, it's definitely more difficult. You can lay a trap in the path of the pull, or lay a trap where your healer (though if your healer keeps moving around, this doesn't work so well!), or just hold your trap in reserve and wait to drop it at a good moment.
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