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Ready to tackle some 5 mans But I need some info first.

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Ready to tackle some 5 mans But I need some info first.

Postby ThugNMeThePally » Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:59 pm

First off my group (all real life friends and family) intends to do 5 mans (5 man heroics later) and 5 mans only. We dont plan on running ANY 10 man or raids, so all the help im looking for is what I need for 5 mans. But first im looking for some help with some things that ive read here the past few days while ive been browsing theses boards.


1) Can someone please explain what mitigation is? what it means and how it works?

2) Do I still need 490 defense in 5man and 5man heroics? and once its 490 are you 100% uncriticable?and 100% uncrushable as long as your holy shield is up?

3) Are there and 5 mans (5man heroics) that the pally has a hard time tanking ( cause of casters, healers, etc...) ?

4) What should be the first 5 man heroic I tackle?

5) Do I need reckoning in 5 man heroics or just 5 mans? should I lose this talent all together for Argent Defender?

6 ) Our group consists of -
- Tankadin (me)
- Priest - Holy
- Mage - Ice
- Warlock - Demonology
- Hunter - Beast Master

In your opinion does this sound like a capable group to handle any sitiuation? or from your experiences should we change up anything, please tell me im here asking for that reason =) The reason I ask is because i read on one of the other fourms the ideal 5man heroic and alot of people had shadow priests and shammys in there picks. should any of my party members reroll there talents? The reason why the party is rolled that way is because noone knows what the pally is capable of so the hunter and lock rolled so they can off tank with there pets... I really need to know if we need this.


Ill use this post to ask any other questions that come up.
Thank you.
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Postby Wakeman » Sat Jan 26, 2008 8:56 pm

1&2) sorry, but these two questions are too fundamental and important yet not easily explained in one or two sentences, so that instead of giving a brief explanation here I would suggest you to check the sticky of the gear section for more detailed information. (The simple answer for 2 is no, yes, no.)

3) Yes. SV is one because of the casters that silence and fear. Better bring two good cc there.

4) H-slave pen, H-underbog, H-mech are the easier heroics.

5) Reckoning is good for leveling and AOE farming, but not very useful in 5-men. Ardent Defender is a MUST for everyone who want to do serious tanking.

6) Nice group with good CC. I expect you guys can handle most of the 5-men/heroics if properly played. Mage can spec Fire instead for higher dps. Feel free to let them CC and the pets offtanking mobs in the beginning. As you grow confident in multitanking, less CC and offtanking will be needed. After that, lock can drop demon for other dps spec too.

Good luck!
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Postby ThugNMeThePally » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:19 am

So even at 490 with HS up, your still not uncrushable? I thought that was the point.

thx for the replys.

New question.

Are the 2 points placed into spell warding really worth it? I mean 4% less damage from spells isnt really alot at all, unless you get hit by spells the WHOLE time. if you get hit by a spell that does 4000 Fire Damage / 4% then you save yourself 160 htpts, unless im doing the math wrong I think ill pass on that talent. Please Give me some insight on this talent. Worth it for a 5 man only party?
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Postby Maranus » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:34 am

ThugNMeThePally wrote:So even at 490 with HS up, your still not uncrushable? I thought that was the point.

thx for the replys.

New question.

Are the 2 points placed into spell warding really worth it? I mean 4% less damage from spells isnt really alot at all, unless you get hit by spells the WHOLE time. if you get hit by a spell that does 4000 Fire Damage / 4% then you save yourself 160 htpts, unless im doing the math wrong I think ill pass on that talent. Please Give me some insight on this talent. Worth it for a 5 man only party?


NO MOB IN A 5MAN CAN CRUSH.
DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT FOR NOW.
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Postby Wakeman » Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:20 am

Maranus wrote:NO MOB IN A 5MAN CAN CRUSH.
DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT FOR NOW.



lol

This question is kind of tricky. Mobs in 5-man CAN crush, but only if they are 3 level above you.

I was thinking about raid bosses at 70 when answering OP's question, so the answer is no. But if the OP is only talking about 5-man AND he is level 70, then right, no mob in 5-man can crush him with or without holy shield.

Nevertheless, it is still advised to check the stickies in gear section. This is important, because imo a successful tankadin is 80% gear and 20% skill. If you don't know which gear to look for and which gear to use when you have several choices, you cannot be a good tank. I felt really unhappy the other day when the other tankadin in my guild chose to use a dps weapon instead of a caster weapon despite I told several pages of whisper to explain our gear mechanics to him. :(
Last edited by Wakeman on Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:37 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Wakeman » Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:25 am

ThugNMeThePally wrote:Are the 2 points placed into spell warding really worth it? I mean 4% less damage from spells isnt really alot at all, unless you get hit by spells the WHOLE time. if you get hit by a spell that does 4000 Fire Damage / 4% then you save yourself 160 htpts, unless im doing the math wrong I think ill pass on that talent. Please Give me some insight on this talent. Worth it for a 5 man only party?



We don't have much skill to protect ourselves against spell casters (unlike warriors), so having 4% helps when your gear is still not very good. As your gear becomes better and better and one day you find that you can hardly die from casters anymore, you can drop it and spec for other things! :D
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Postby Maranus » Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:57 am

Wakeman wrote:
Maranus wrote:NO MOB IN A 5MAN CAN CRUSH.
DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT FOR NOW.



lol

This question is kind of tricky. Mobs in 5-man CAN crush, but only if they are 3 level above you.

I was thinking about raid bosses at 70 when answering OP's question, so the answer is no. But if the OP is only talking about 5-man AND he is level 70, then right, no mob in 5-man can crush him with or without holy shield.


True, but the level gap would preport additional, more important problems, I would suspect.
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Postby Rokh » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:39 am

There is a macro in the macro section that tells you your crush chance.

and dont get spellwarding, persuit of justice is way more usefull as it helps not only midigate spell damage, but it also helps you resist non-damage spells like fear/slows/root/stun.

and heroic slave pens is a whore, i wouldnt recomend it as a starting heroic unless your mage has slow and can kite the un CC able guardians.

Heroics are also alot about trial and error, once you figure out whats hard and whats not, you can roll through one with out any problems.

A good starting heroic imo would be botanica, i find it to be very easy and not very 'heroic' at all.. most of the mobs dont hit over 700ish, so you can still group tank if you want, or use CC.

I also really enjoy mana tombs, if you get 'shadow protection' greens, even cloth, and get your SR to about 300 with aura the first boss is comedy. allthough alot of trash in heroic MT drops threat, so have your finger on the stun button incase they descide to run off.


I have a seriously hard time tanking the event in shattered halls, its a funny situation because its so easy i dont get any mana back and end up running OOM.. you cant drink for some stupid reason and potion just doesnt cut it... I run out of mana before the group gets to the end of the hall and problems occure.... however, i got that trinket from heroic unberbog that restors mana when your hit, i am looking forward to trying it in that fight.

speaking of, anyone have a good use for that trinket? i picked it up just for shits and dont really know what it would be good for besides something like shattered halls archer event.
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Postby guillex » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:57 am

Your defense counts towards being uncrittable.

Your avoidance (miss, parry, dodge) counts towards being uncrushable.

Your mitigation (block value/rating) counts towards being uncrushable.

With 485 defense you will be uncrittable in regular 5mans.
490 defense is better for heroics.

Be as close to uncrushable as possible, it's not a requirement for anything below the raiding level, but it is very good to have (as block is easiest to stack, so you'll be blocking more and generating threat).


As for the actual definition of mitigation, here's a search from Dictionary.com:

mit·i·gate /ˈmɪtɪˌgeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mit-i-geyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -gat·ed, -gat·ing.
–verb (used with object)
1. to lessen in force or intensity, as wrath, grief, harshness, or pain; moderate.
2. to make less severe: to mitigate a punishment.
3. to make (a person, one's state of mind, disposition, etc.) milder or more gentle; mollify; appease.
–verb (used without object)
4. to become milder; lessen in severity.


As was stated in an earlier post, there is a sticky that delves deep into the complete explanation of mitigation regarding Paladin tanking. Take a look at it. It's a long read, but quite informative.

Wowwiki has a short blurb on mitigation here, along with links to the combat system, which also covers the term in depth.
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Postby Rokh » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:06 am

/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(string.format("Need 102.4 avoidance. Currently: %s",floor((GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+5+(GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)+UnitDefense("Player")-5*UnitLevel("Player"))* 0.04)*100)/100))



there is the macro if your to lazy to go to the macro forums. make sure holy shield is up when you click that.
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Postby guillex » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:07 am

Rokh wrote:/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(string.format("Need 102.4 avoidance. Currently: %s",floor((GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance()+5+(GetCombatRatingBonus(CR_DEFENSE_SKILL)+UnitDefense("Player")-5*UnitLevel("Player"))* 0.04)*100)/100))



there is the macro if your to lazy to go to the macro forums. make sure holy shield is up when you click that.


That one assumes you do NOT have 5/5 deflection, I believe. There's another one with a +20 in there somewhere.
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Re: Ready to tackle some 5 mans But I need some info first.

Postby Balanor » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:47 am

ThugNMeThePally wrote:1) Can someone please explain what mitigation is? what it means and how it works?


Mitigation is the reduction/elimination of damage. Dodge/parry eliminates a hit and thus mitigates all damage. Block reduces damage by the amount of your block value (not to be confused with your block rating). Defense increases your chance of being missed, again resulting in mitigation of ALL damage. Armor mitigates a % of the damage received when you are hit based upon your armory rating. Targets to shoot for:

-485 defense for normal/heroic 5 mans (uncrittable)
-490 defense for raid bosses (uncrittable)
-102.4% combined miss/dodge/parry/block with holy shield (+block rating) up to make you uncrushable to a raid boss (5 man bosses do not crush)

2) Do I still need 490 defense in 5man and 5man heroics? and once its 490 are you 100% uncriticable?and 100% uncrushable as long as your holy shield is up?
(see #1 above)

3) Are there and 5 mans (5man heroics) that the pally has a hard time tanking ( cause of casters, healers, etc...) ?
For normals, I still hate tanking the 2nd boss in SL (Blackheart the Inciter) because of the way he blows thru my mana during the mind controls. After the second mind control, I am usually OOM and having to pop a pot to maintain mana for agro. Never had a prob with SV on normal even with the silences. I am still undergeared such that I have to CC heroics but the silencers are usually the ones first CC'd.

4) What should be the first 5 man heroic I tackle?
Slave Pens was the instance I first tanked on heroic to pop my cherry. Wasnt much different than normal.

[quote}5) Do I need reckoning in 5 man heroics or just 5 mans? should I lose this talent all together for Argent Defender?[/quote]No you dont need reckoning (yes I still got it) for heroics. You DEFINATELY do want to pick up Ardent Defender (Argent Defender is a pally sword in EQ :D). Having a reduction in damage once you get low on hps is very nice for heroics.

6 ) Our group consists of -
- Tankadin (me)
- Priest - Holy
- Mage - Ice
- Warlock - Demonology
- Hunter - Beast Master

In your opinion does this sound like a capable group to handle any sitiuation?

Group composition doesnt get any better than that. Sheeps, seduces, banishes, ice traps....you are set for CC which you WILL want to use in heroics at least until you get better gear.

I'm a casaul pally who has just started running heroics with guildies and our usual makeup is

-Prot pally
- resto druid
- BM hunter (thinking about respeccing)
- fire mage
- various other DPS

It works fine and all of us are casual and poorly geared.
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Postby Balanor » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:55 am

ThugNMeThePally wrote:Are the 2 points placed into spell warding really worth it?
Personally, I would say no. Caster mobs are a pally's biggest thorn but you are right, 4% damage reduction against spells does seem worthless. Never had it, never missed it.
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Postby ThugNMeThePally » Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:03 pm

Thank Everyone Very much!!! Great replys.

Next Question.

When my group starts 70 5-man heroics the warlock was thinking about switching out the lock for his feral Druid, because he said he has been in the Heroics and they Hit for 3-5k damage and the druid would work better in the 5-man heroics the the lock. Whats your opinions? Should he switch out the lock for the druid? if so why? if not why?

Thank you again. :D
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Postby Rokh » Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:14 pm

world of ranged craft.

loc > druid
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